Falling off a goal is normal. Knowing how to get back on track—without shame or drama—is the real skill. I’m hosting a free 60-minute live workshop on Tuesday, January 27 at 7pm ET to teach a simple framework for getting unstuck. Register now for Falling Off is Part of It: The Framework for Getting Back on Track (Without the Drama)!
In this episode, Chris Guillebeau explores time anxiety and the illusion of urgency that is st. aling your joy. He explains the pervasive feeling of never having enough time, discusses the psychological roots of time anxiety, and shares practical strategies for managing competing demands, avoidance, and procrastination. Chris also offers insights on creating personal “rules of engagement,” decluttering schedules, and embracing acceptance, encouraging listeners to cultivate a more intentional, compassionate, and fulfilling relationship with time.
Exciting News!!! Coming in March, 2026, my new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot: The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life is now available for pre-orders!
Key Takeaways:
- Definition and exploration of time anxiety as a psychological issue.
- The distinction between feeling overwhelmed and traditional productivity challenges.
- The impact of competing priorities and requests on time management.
- The concept of “rules of engagement” for managing daily demands.
- Strategies for overcoming avoidance and procrastination.
- The importance of self-awareness and intentionality in managing time.
- Practical tips for improving time management, such as allowing buffer time for tasks.
- The idea of “time decluttering” to create space in schedules.
- The role of cognitive distortions in exacerbating time-related stress.
- Encouragement to embrace a mindset shift towards a more fulfilling relationship with time.
Chris Guillebeau is the New York Times bestselling author of The $100 Startup, Side Hustle, and The Happiness of Pursuit, which have sold over one million copies worldwide. During a lifetime of self-employment that included a four-year commitment as a volunteer executive in West Africa, he visited every country in the world (193 in total) before his thirty-fifth birthday.
Connect with Chris Guillebeau: Website | Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn
If you enjoyed this conversation with Chris Guillebeau, check out these other episodes:
Chris Guillebeau (Interview from 2014)
How to Accept Limitations and Make Time for What Counts with Oliver Burkeman
Time Management for Mortals with Oliver Burkeman
Oliver Burkeman on Modern Time Management (2019)
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Episode Transcript:
Eric Zimmer 00:00:00 Hey, it’s Eric. Quick question. Did you set a goal in January that’s already gone quiet, or have you fallen off a goal even before that and haven’t been able to restart? If so, you’re not alone. Here’s what I’ve learned. After three decades of studying how people change, everyone falls off. The difference between people who succeed and people who stay stuck isn’t discipline. It’s knowing how to get back on track without turning it into a crisis. That’s a skill. And most of us were never taught it. So I’m hosting a free live workshop on Tuesday, January 27th at 7 p.m. ET. It’s called Falling Off is part of it: how to get Back on track. And I’m going to teach you the exact framework I use for getting unstuck without all the shame and drama your brain wants to add. Whether you’re off track right now, or you just want to be ready for when it happens because it will. This workshop will show you a different way. It’s 60 minutes, it’s free and it might change how you think about setbacks for good. Register at www.oneyoufeed.net/restart.
Chris Guillebeau 00:01:10 One of the most important things you can do in your life is to give yourself the gift of time. There’s a cliché about time is the most precious resource, which is also true. It’s a cliché and it’s true. It’s the most precious resource. Yet we don’t really live that way.
Chris Forbes 00:01:31 Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:16 If you’ve been walking around with that low level feeling that you’re behind on your calendar, on your goals, maybe even on your life, Chris Gilbert has a name for it time anxiety. Chris is back on the show with his latest book, Time Anxiety The Illusion of Urgency and a Better Way to Live. And what I loved about this conversation is how specific we get. We talk about the two kinds of time anxiety the daily. There’s not enough hours, and the existential life is moving fast. Am I too late? We get into practical things like time blindness, building better time rules, and why? Simply noticing where your time goes can start changing the whole pattern. I’m Erich Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, Chris. Welcome back to the show.
Chris Guillebeau 00:03:05 Thanks, Eric. It’s great to be back.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:06 It has been a long time. I don’t know how long. at least probably 7 or 8 years. But I remember, fondly talking to you, so I’m happy to see you.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:16 You have a new book out. It’s just going to structure a lot of our conversation. It’s called time anxiety, the illusion of Urgency and a Better Way to Live. But before we jump into that, let’s start in the way that we always do with the parable. And in the parable, there’s a grandparent who’s talking with a grandchild, and they say, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. I think about for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says the one you feed. So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
Chris Guillebeau 00:04:03 Eric, what a great question. I remember however many years ago it has been that you first asked me that question.
Chris Guillebeau 00:04:09 I have no idea what I said years ago, but it’s funny because I’ve heard this parable a couple of other times since it’s come up, but I think you were the first one that brought it to my attention. I mean, what a wonderful allegory. Like it sits with you, you know? So even as you’re saying it now, like I’ve heard it before, but it’s like I’m it’s hitting me differently. And I even just wrote down on this index card like kindness, bravery and love. You know, I’m like, okay, that’s that’s what I want to be. You know, that’s that’s the wolf that I want to be feeding. But I also recognize that I have greed, I have fear, I have whatever the other undesirable characteristic was. So I guess that’s how it strikes me. I’m like, I do feed both of these wolves. I can’t say that I feed the, you know, the other wolf, like 0%. So I’m just trying to, like, work on my ratio and try to have the kindness, bravery and love be higher.
Eric Zimmer 00:04:56 Yeah, it seems like that other wolf just kind of knows how to eat on its own, right? Like it’s, you know, we talk about, like, you know, which one are you going to feed? But I’m like, I think that guy kind of know he can scavenge pretty well for for what he needs. It’s that other wolf that kind of needs. Needs a little bit more. Needs a little bit more of my attention and nourishment. That’s right. All right. So your latest book is about time anxiety. And you wrote early in the book A Definition of time anxiety. And I just want to read it because I think it sets us this whole conversation up really, really well. And you say it’s for those who feel like there’s never enough time for the things that matter, who fear they’re too late for something important in their life, and who sense there’s something they should be doing right now but aren’t sure what it is. What led you into time?
Chris Guillebeau 00:05:41 Anxiety the definition that you just read from? In a lot of ways, it came from conversations I had with a lot of people as I was researching this topic.
Chris Guillebeau 00:05:51 I went out and did a study with about 1500 people, and I was really surprised at just the remarkable, I wouldn’t say universality, but at least the commonality of the responses. And so many people said very similar things. So many people said like, you know, time anxiety. This is the problem of my life, the defining problem. I think about this all the time. It affects me in so many ways. So that’s the it’s a little bit of a roundabout way to answer, but that’s the second part of what kind of drew me to it. But the first part is like, this was my problem and I was often thinking, and I still am, but a little bit less than. I was just constantly feeling stressed out about. How do I spend the time that I have? Am I doing the right things? You know, there’s so many things I could be doing and it’s great to have choice, but it’s also a little bit overwhelming sometimes. And this sense of, oh, like, life is short and I want to use the time, well, you know, which wolf do I feed? Right.
Chris Guillebeau 00:06:46 And just trying to kind of pick it apart. And so it was affecting my life in a lot of ways. And as I discussed it with more and more people, I noticed that a lot of people really latched on to this idea and said, I’ve never heard this phrase before, time anxiety. But whatever it is, I have that like that affects me too. Yeah. So I wanted to kind of explore it a little bit more.
Eric Zimmer 00:07:04 Exactly. I think, I mean, I certainly do in many of the different forms that you’ve talked about, but you break it down into sort of two core components. One is existential. Time is running out in my life. The older I get, the more this one feels like it’s okay. Boy, it sure is running out fast. But then there’s also the daily routine. There’s just not enough time in any day. So it’s this weird thing, like there’s not enough time from both angles.
Chris Guillebeau 00:07:31 Yeah. And I as I talked with people, you can kind of tell that most people tend to gravitate towards one or the other, or they latch on, they’re like, oh, that’s that’s me.
Chris Guillebeau 00:07:39 You know, it’s like the existential, as you said, you know, time is running out. What do I do with with my life or the like? I have a pretty good vision for my life. At least I know more or less. You know what I want to do. But I’m really struggling with how, you know, competing priorities because a lot of advice that we get is, you know, it’s very reductive. It’s very much like we need to prioritize, like, okay, that’s true. We need to prioritize. But what happens when you make a list of your priorities and you you still are not able to fit it all in, right? And there’s there’s more that you want to do than you’re able to do. And so that can be overwhelming and distressing. Right. And so ultimately the you know, the best response to this, you know, is connecting the two problems. Like, you know, we need to connect our day to day to, you know, what we feel is purposeful and meaningful and such.
Chris Guillebeau 00:08:27 But we also need to be able to let go of a lot of things along the way, because we’re not going to be able to do, you know, everything that that we want to do. That’s ultimately like the direction we need to go in. But first, I think a lot of people are just stuck in one of those loops.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:39 Yeah, I love what you said about competing priorities. And I’ve got a book coming out in March. And one of the things that’s.
Chris Guillebeau 00:08:44 Great, congratulations, by the.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:45 Way. Thank you. Thank you. That I talk about is this idea of motivational complexity. We want all sorts of different things. We have values. We have needs, we have desires. There’s just this whole soup of things going on inside of us. And if we don’t acknowledge that and do our best to cope with it, I don’t think you ever get complete clarity. It’s always changing. It’s always shifting. But recognizing that that’s the nature of the game, I think can be really helpful.
Eric Zimmer 00:09:14 And that comes up in this book again and again and again, which is to recognize on one sense, the reality is you’re not going to get to do all the things that you could think of, that you want to do or that matter to you. Like, that’s not going to happen. And I feel like I recognize that early in my life and wrestled with it a lot. Like it was a pain. It felt like a pain. I feel like I’ve become a little bit more accepting of it over the years.
Chris Guillebeau 00:09:41 Interesting. I think it’s good that you recognize that early in life, because people often tend to. Comes a little bit later. You know, if at all. I think some people never experience it. But if you understand, oh, this is a this is a problem. It is a pain point. And I have to accept, you know, that I’m not going to be able to do everything I want to do. And, you know, we I think it’s interesting because with kids, we’re always telling kids like, you can dream big and like you can be anything.
Chris Guillebeau 00:10:06 I think that’s very helpful, you know, for developing an imagination, you know, at a certain age. But then, you know, at some point the messaging has to shift of like, okay, you can do anything, but you probably can’t do everything right. So, like, what is it that you really want to do? And actually to really pursue that thing, you’re going to have to close some other doors. And so it is painful. It is difficult. But on the other side of that pain, it’s actually something much greater. On the other side of that pain is like, oh, it’s actually joyful, right? I could spend my whole life regretting things that I didn’t do or paths I didn’t go down, or I can just accept that’s how it is for every life. You know, for every person, for every life and for every. Even if you’re just thinking about your own life. Like for every timeline of your life. Like for every path you could go down.
Chris Guillebeau 00:10:51 Like some doors have to close for others to open. And so it can actually be kind of exciting and relieving once you kind of work through it. But I think, at least for me, I was just stuck in not being able to to work through that and just, you know, feeling so much angst and regret over it.
Eric Zimmer 00:11:06 I was just recording an intro for another show that will release sometime in the future, but this idea was in there. It was about desire and recognizing desire and looking at desire and saying like, am I willing to pay the price to recognize that desire? And in the cases where you realize, no, it’s a real relief to set those aside. And I was in it, I was sharing. Like for me, and I’ve shared this on the podcast before about when I started this podcast was about when playing in bands had wrapped up for me and I had this. I wanted to be in a band. I want to be in a band. I want to be.
Eric Zimmer 00:11:45 And it was always kind of there. And I looked at my life and I was like, the way I’m traveling and the fact that I want to do this podcast means that’s off the table, at least for now. And that turned out to be a relief. I mean, of course there’s some sadness over it, but it also turned out to be a relief because I wasn’t carrying this thing around, that I was feeling bad about myself for not doing. And I think this is to what you’re saying.
Chris Guillebeau 00:12:08 And it allows you to it allows you to fully develop this new creative outlet, right? And to really focus on it and do it well and like. And how many years has it been now? Right. Like when I talked eight years ago or something like 11 years, 11 years. It’s very rare. Of course, as you know, you know, for a podcast to continue so long and to grow, and I think it’s because you had to like let go of some other things, but you’re not letting go of all of your creativity.
Chris Guillebeau 00:12:32 I guess that’s the other point. It’s not like you’re like, oh, that was my creative life, and now I’m letting go of it. It’s your creative life develops, you know it develops, it changes, it evolves. And you could still be, you know, playing bands and doing that. And that’s fine. That’s like that’s another permutation. But, you found something. I would say it’s probably better you found an evolution in a transformation.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:53 Yeah. And there may be a time that I do that again when I’m not traveling so much. And so I think that’s the other thing often is season of life. Right. Recognizing what season of life are you in? Like my the editor and my best friend for the show, Chris, they recently adopted a baby, and he’s he’s my age. And so his season of life has just suddenly shifted dramatically. But recognizing that like, okay, the season of life I’m in right now looks very different than it does with me and my son, who’s 27, very, you know, very different seasons of life.
Chris Guillebeau 00:13:31 I think what you want in different seasons, your life changes what you bring to the table your capacity And I think a lot of people just don’t own this or they don’t recognize this. Maybe they’re kind of rebelling against the change. It’s uncomfortable. It’s like I’m used to doing it this way, or they just don’t always realize, like they don’t realize that the very, that very point about seasonality and lifespan. I mean, that was difficult for me. And I eventually kind of learned to accept you can kind of fight against it for a long time, but you’re not going to win. Right. Yeah. And so it is much better to be like, okay, you know, that’s I had these moments, I had these peak moments for a long time. And it’s really great that I had those moments. And I probably need to do something different. I’ll have some other peak moments or I’ll try something else, you know. So these are things I think, that are important to work through in life.
Multiple Speakers 00:14:39 So the book.
Eric Zimmer 00:14:40 Starts with more of addressing that daily routine part. This feeling that there’s just not enough time in the day. And there’s a couple different things that we can talk through. But I wanted to bring up the idea of time blindness. You’ve got a chapter that says time blindness hinders your sense of time. What is time blindness?
Chris Guillebeau 00:15:02 So time blindness is a condition that’s experienced by a lot of people with ADHD or another type of neurodivergent, but not exclusively like other people you know who might be more neurotypical can also experience this. Basically, it kind of refers to our inability to estimate how long something takes. And a lot of people think, oh, I’m really good at keeping up with time. But, you know, first of all, even if you are really good at keeping up with time, it’s not the best use of your cognitive attention. Like, we all have limited cognitive energy we can give, and there are clocks and timers and tools that are much, much better at keeping up with time.
Chris Guillebeau 00:15:36 So you can be thinking about lots of other things. But in addition, a lot of people are just like, we really struggle and I can say, include myself in this too, because I have ADHD. Like, we really struggle in like I’m going to just try to do one more thing, you know, before I run out the door to this meeting or to run this errand, and then we end up being inevitably late. Yeah. Or it’s like I’m working on a task and this task is going to take, you know, X amount of time, but actually it’s going to take a good bit more because I didn’t think about the tasks that precede the task or what else has to happen, or, you know, just the time to transition and all this. So basically, like we don’t estimate time. Well, and one of the best things you can do is to allow more time for transitions and allow more time to get somewhere or allow more time between meetings and commitments and such. And it just makes your life so much better.
Chris Guillebeau 00:16:21 It’s a very simple recommendation. I wrote a little manifesto for the book, and I had like my top ten recommendations, and I kind of put it at the top of like, allow 10 to 15 more minutes than you think you need for every task and for every transition. And if you do this, it’s going to make your life better. Because a lot of people, they really resist this idea of like adding extra time because they just feel like they’re losing something. You know, they’re like, what if I leave ten minutes early? What am I going to do with that? Like, I’ve wasted that time, you know? And the reality is, if you’re often late to things like a lot of people are, you’re probably not going to go from being like ten minutes late to always being ten minutes early. Most likely you’re just going to be on time, right? but even if you are a little bit early to things like, is that the worst thing in the world? You know, like, you know, bring a book, bring do something right.
Chris Guillebeau 00:17:07 Like, like you’re going to have a little bit of extra time. Mostly you’re going to feel better. So it’s mostly I should say it’s partly a strategy of like logistics and organizing your life. But I think it also is about relieving some of that stress that you feel, because if you’re constantly running behind, then it has a high cognitive cost.
Eric Zimmer 00:17:24 Yeah. As somebody who used to be a software project manager, I can tell you that it’s not just people who have ADHD who don’t know how long something’s going to take. It’s pretty quick. I mean, I just basically was always like at least double what they said, how long it was going to take. And then there were certain people that I knew, like, okay, you’re gonna probably have to 3 or 4 x that, like they just have no sense. And I think we want to be optimistic. You know, we’re always planning. I think a lot of the plans we make are based on best case, which rarely occurs. Sure.
Chris Guillebeau 00:17:57 And so one time, maybe one time, I did this task along, you know, and this long took. Right.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:03 So yeah. And the the extent that I use timers, alarms and calendars is amazing, I would be lost without them. Like, if I’ve got ten minutes. Like, say our call ended and I have another call in ten minutes. If I do not set a timer for ten minutes, I’ll start doing something and I’ll look up and I’ll be like, oh, well, I’m ten minutes late. Now, like again and again. It’s. And so I think when we recognize these things about ourselves. We can put systems in place that make it better. And there’s a lot of great recommendations in this book for that exact thing.
Chris Guillebeau 00:18:38 Yeah. That’s great. You found those systems that work for you. I imagine it’s made a big difference in your life, like doing those, installing those timers and setting up the countdowns and all those things.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:46 Yeah, it’s sort of also, like with my memory, I just realized I remembered so little, I was like, I just early in my life was like, it all has to go.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:54 It all has to be put in some storage keeping place. I think sometimes being really, really.
Multiple Speakers 00:19:02 Really bad at something.
Eric Zimmer 00:19:03 Causes you to develop systems faster than the people who are only a little bit bad at.
Chris Guillebeau 00:19:08 It. I think you’re absolutely right. Yep.
Eric Zimmer 00:19:11 What are time rules? You talk about time rules exist to serve you. You don’t exist to serve them.
Chris Guillebeau 00:19:18 Yeah. When I when I say that it’s like a chapter heading. It’s meant to be like a suggestion or an aspiration. Like our lives are governed by time rules, and some of these things are internalized at a young age. We grow up and we under like a certain environment with our parents or other family, and it’s like, this is what happens at certain times. You know, a dinner is usually served at this time, and it’s usually pretty consistent in whatever family. Or maybe it’s very inconsistent, but there’s usually some sort of like, this is how time operates in your life. And so you grow up and you don’t usually question that very much.
Chris Guillebeau 00:19:51 And then you might end up, you know, kind of developing these rules about time or also engagement with people about, you know, I have the rule that I must complete all of these things before I begin something else, or I have a rule. I respond to every email within an hour or within 24 hours or whatever. And so you have a lot of these things that are probably not very defined, like you’ve never written down, like you’re on my list of time rules, but nevertheless they affect your life in a lot of ways. So I think it’s very helpful to one identify like what are the time rules that you have been operating by? Where did those come from and are they currently helping you or serving you? You know, so in your case you might say like, well, I’m using timers to keep up with with things, you know, between different appointments and such. Is that serving you? Definitely. Like this is a good time rule for you. Yeah, right. But I think a lot of people, when they start thinking about this, they they notice some things that are not necessarily that helpful for them.
Chris Guillebeau 00:20:46 And if they could maybe let those go or develop some other time rule, then they might actually be better off. You know, and I always encourage people to like flip the script a little bit and think about what you really want to do and like. Speaking of priorities. Like what is most important to you? Not not what is most important to other people who have expectations for you? I’m not saying those things are irrelevant, but if you’re thinking about your life and how you want to spend it, you know what do you feel like you’re not giving attention to that you would like to? You know, it could be some hobby or some some personal development thing or something you want to learn or just practice or whatever it is, you know, and then, you know, is there a way you can start incorporating that a little bit more in your life, and can you set some time rules around that? And like, I’m going to do this thing before I do these other things. so it’s just kind of a way, like a little schematic of thinking about how you actually spend the hours of your day and trying to align them with your, your core motivations.
Chris Guillebeau 00:21:39 And something that I think is really important to keep in mind is like, if you don’t make these decisions for yourself, like if you don’t decide how you’re going to spend your time, most likely someone else is going to decide that for you, right? Like, if you don’t just make decisions throughout your life, like most likely you’re going to have a boss, you’re going to have a working environment. You might have a partner, a relationship, family, other people like the decisions will just end up being made. And maybe those some of those decisions are great and fine and comfortable and the same ones you would have made on your own. But most likely you probably make some different ones if you took more ownership and autonomy of it.
Multiple Speakers 00:22:11 You have a.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:12 Chapter on cognitive distortions. Why are cognitive distortions important in managing time? Anxiety?
Chris Guillebeau 00:22:21 Cognitive distortions are essentially beliefs that we end up internalizing that affect a lot of our behavior. And so we might experience this cognitive distortion of personalization, of feeling like either people are out to get us.
Chris Guillebeau 00:22:39 It’s not so much like paranoia like that, but just that we are a failure where other people are thinking poorly of us, other people are judging us all the time. You know, if we make a small mistake, it’s a disaster. All all is lost. And, you know, black and white thinking is another distortion, right? There’s a lack of nuance, you know, and so if you begin to kind of recognize this in yourself, and I can be a very rigid thinker, it’s something I’ve had to kind of work through and catastrophizing as well. Like, you know, everything is just terrible because one thing is not as amazing as I hoped, or I didn’t achieve the outcome that I wanted to with this one thing. Right? Yeah. Then once you begin to recognize that, then you can start to kind of tell yourself a different story. You know, and realize like, oh, okay, maybe it’s actually not that. You know, if I go out in the woods, I might not be attacked by a bear, right? Like, there’s there’s alternatives.
Chris Guillebeau 00:23:28 Like, other things could happen, you know? Yeah. and so I, we put this in the beginning of the book also, just because I think when I first wrote, I wrote like five drafts of this book. Like, I just kept writing and writing, which I wouldn’t necessarily recommend as an author. Like, I think 2 to 3 drafts is good.
Eric Zimmer 00:23:44 Good, good.
Chris Guillebeau 00:23:45 Yeah, yeah. if I knew how to get to the fifth one first, I would have done that. It’s not like I wanted to keep doing it. But the point is, I had a lot of, like, philosophy and, like, theory in the book. And I, as I kind of wrote draft to draft, I kind of removed a lot of that. I kept some of it, but like, I really wanted it to be very practical and to address what I think is a really deep emotional need that people have. And when people feel really stressed and distressed and overwhelmed, they don’t need philosophy or theory.
Chris Guillebeau 00:24:15 They need to know, like, how do I get out of this? Right? And so that’s why I wanted to talk about cognitive distortions early.
Eric Zimmer 00:24:22 Yeah, I really like that section. I have a phrase I use a lot, which is extreme language causes extreme emotions. And in there you have a section called Everything is Ruined, which is I just I just love that that phrase has that phrase has all sorts of problems in it. Right? Like everything is a cognitive distortion because you are a black and white thinking and then ruined your catastrophizing. I just think it’s one of those phrases, it’s all ruined.
Chris Guillebeau 00:24:51 You know, like we can all see that, that that thinking is problematic. You know, if our friend is doing it, it’s very easy to be like, hey, man, you know, like, let’s look at this a different way, you know? But when it happens to us, you know, then it’s it’s difficult. Like we have to kind of learn to do that.
Chris Guillebeau 00:25:09 I mean, I think this is, you know, I’m not the one who came up with this idea, but learning to speak to ourselves as we would to a friend is is pretty helpful advice. It makes a lot of sense. And you’re like, oh yeah, I wouldn’t actually talk to, you know, a friend who is struggling or suffering in this way. I wouldn’t just say, get your act together, you know, which is how I often speak to myself. There’s probably a more effective route to creating whatever the behavioral change or the change in my emotional state than just the tough love thing all the time.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:37 Right. I think the other part of that idea, talk to yourself like you would a friend that is so valuable is there’s this thing Ethan Cross from the University of Michigan talks about called Solomon’s Paradox, meaning I can be really wise when it comes to your problems. I’m terrible at my own, basically, like King Solomon was this way. Apparently he was very wise, but his own life was a train wreck, right? If you actually imagine what you would say to a friend, if you actually do that imaginative act of putting yourself in their shoes, not only are you kinder you.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:10 Sometimes you can sort of hedge around that Solomon’s paradox a little bit because that’s the thing we need. Often with cognitive distortions is we need a different voice in our head.
Chris Guillebeau 00:26:21 Yep. You have this tunnel vision thing, right? And so it’s just like you said, you need a different perspective review I like I ran a note about that. Solomon’s paradox. Yeah, well, Eric, I’ve never actually had any problems, but I’m glad.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:31 But you’re just assuming. Yeah. Sure. In my case, yes. I want to kind of go back, maybe to the beginning, because the first section of the book is to give yourself more time, which sounds kind of impossible. Where do we start with that idea of giving ourselves enough time? Because a lot of these things that we’re talking about, about prioritizing what’s important, about putting systems in place, about all these things, require some degree of time. And if we’re overwhelmed day to day, we feel like we can’t already keep up. How do we find time to do some of these other things?
Chris Guillebeau 00:27:10 They do require time, but I think they also require capacity and they also require the belief that this is possible.
Chris Guillebeau 00:27:18 I have to believe that I can be better, right? And then I need to have the capacity or the energies to somehow address that. If you start by telling people like you need to build systems into your life, I feel like that’s very it’s true. It’s interesting because it’s true, it’s true and it’s helpful, and yet it’s very off putting. Or at least it leaves people feeling kind of discouraged, you know, because they’re like, okay, you know, because, like, I’m just overwhelmed. What are these systems, you know, how do I do this? So I think one of the most important things you can do in your life is to give yourself the gift of time. There’s a cliche about time is the most precious resource, which is also true. It’s a cliche and it’s true. It’s the most precious resource. Yet we don’t really live that way so often, so frequently. So, so many of us. And so a really practical thing you should start with is just and I think everybody can do this and everybody probably, you know, I don’t want to say should, but I think it’s very helpful is to begin just noticing how you spend your time and just that’s that’s all you have to do, right? If you’re like, oh, I like this concept, but I don’t quite know what to do.
Chris Guillebeau 00:28:19 Just notice how you spend your time and do that this week. Like pay attention to how you spend your time and how you feel about it. Like as you’re going through the day and ask yourself, like, what is bringing me energy? Like good energy? What is draining my energy? In an ideal world, what would I like more of? What do I want to do less of? Who are the situations or the people that are, you know, positive for me and negative and just without even doing anything else, right? Like, you just start with this. And I think if you start with that, like you naturally begin making some other decisions and just kind of getting a little bit closer to like, whatever your desired truth is. And then to get more practical and you’re like, okay, like, how do I actually give myself the gift of time? So, you know, a few years ago decluttering was like a big thing. And like, I mean, it still is, but like, I’m going to go through my house and like, clean stuff up and tidy up my space.
Chris Guillebeau 00:29:10 And I think that’s helpful and fine and probably good. But again, if time is our most precious resource, then it’s not so much like our physical possessions that are stressing us out. It is our time commitments. So I have a little exercise about time decluttering. How can you like go through your calendar and like what have you been added to on your calendar that you could remove? Maybe you agreed to do something at some point and you need to be on that meeting. Do you need to do this thing like, you know, and so take a couple of things off, right. Start taking items off your calendar. Try to reduce the number of notifications you have on your phone and you close an inbox. A lot of us have multiple inboxes. We’ve got email. We’ve got social media, which all has direct messages. Maybe you have other means of contact and such. Can you close at least one of them down? I’m not saying you have to close yourself off to the world. It’s just like a little bit, right? What can we do when you start practicing these things? And I think that is helpful.
Chris Guillebeau 00:30:02 And then as you are like removing you kind of notice because you’re continuing to notice. How does this feel? Right? I’ve just cleared up a little bit of space before I put something else in that calendar appointment that I have have cleared. Let me just think about, like, what do I actually want to do? How do I want to to spend my time? And I think that’s an important place to start. And it gives you some confidence and capacity to think about the rest of the things.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:41 Yeah, I love that idea of just paying attention because there’s always that observer effect. Also, the minute you start observing something, you almost immediately start to improve it. I think in a lot of ways it just it just sort of starts to happen. There’s another part in there where you talk about an identity shift, and I really like this, you know, shifting from something like, I will always feel frazzled and overwhelmed to I’m a person who is figuring things out like that is a totally different reframe on where we are.
Chris Guillebeau 00:31:12 I want people to know that if they are distressed about like where the time is going and what am I doing with my life? All these questions, I think it’s really, really important to know that things can be better like that. You can make this identity shift, and the identity shift doesn’t mean that like every one of your life problems is solved. Like, of course not. But it does mean that that you know you can be better tomorrow than you are today. Like there’s something you can do now that will help your future self. I think if you don’t have that internalized belief, then you can feel really discouraged and even clinically depressed just because you’re, you know, like life is meaningless. Like, okay, well, life is meaningless, but in the meaninglessness, where can we find meaning? You know, I think that’s where we have to kind of get to.
Eric Zimmer 00:31:57 What I like about this book is it is hitting this thing from a couple of angles. So we recently created a four week email course called overwhelm is optional, which the entire point of the program.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:09 It’s not a time management course at all. It’s all a course about how do I relate to my full life as it is in a different way, so it feels less overwhelming. And it’s also really helpful to do things that improve your quote unquote, time management ability. And I think that’s what you’ve done really well in this book is you’ve hit both of those, you’ve hit like, here are some really practical things you can do, you know, steps you can take. And here are some ways of thinking about this problem differently so that you relate to it differently. And if you’ve got a problem that you can both partially solve and relate to better, you’ve come a long way.
Chris Guillebeau 00:32:52 Well, thank you for saying that. And your course sounds very helpful as well. I think, you know, for me, I wanted to address the psychological problem of feeling overwhelmed as opposed to the productivity problem or the how can I be more productive? And I think as a person who, like, read every productivity book and like really got into like all the methods and like every journal, you know, every bullet journal.
Chris Guillebeau 00:33:16 I got a variation. Yeah, exactly. I know, and I and I loved that. And I also kind of realized. Am I getting better at doing the wrong things? You know, I’m getting really good, very effective at doing the wrong thing or very efficient, I should say, at doing the wrong things or not always the wrong things. But like, I was constantly trying to, like, win this war of like, oh, I want to do all these things, and I want to be more communicative and more responsive to people and not let anybody down. And, well, that’s impossible in life. You’re going to let people down. Right. I feel like all of those methods and tools and tips and such, you know, they’re kind of predicated on this false promise, which is that you can do it all. And so I think it’s much more important, like as we started from the beginning, like, let’s accept that there’s a lot we can’t do. And in that acceptance there’s some grief and some sadness for sure.
Chris Guillebeau 00:34:03 But as we work through that and accept it, then we can probably get more excited about the things that we are able to like. You know, whatever limited control we have or autonomy or choice. You know, how are we going to spend that? And that’s that’s exciting. Once you can get through it.
Eric Zimmer 00:34:17 We talked earlier about competing priorities. You’ve got a chapter called Use Rules of Engagement to decide between competing requests. What are competing requests? Is that different than competing priorities. And how do we use rules of engagement to to sort that out?
Chris Guillebeau 00:34:33 Yeah. So rules of engagement kind of borrowed this from like a military concept of like, you know, how generals and armies and soldiers are supposed to engage, you know, in any kind of conflict. And there’s various rules about proportionality and there’s rules about, you know, who can strike first and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And so, like, we don’t have to stay on the military metaphor too much. But I like this idea of, like, okay, throughout our life or throughout our day to day.
Chris Guillebeau 00:35:00 Let’s just say we’re constantly encountering, you know, a lot of requests or demands or opportunities for our time, whether it’s somebody asking directly or it’s also just all the different distractions, you know, that we tend to encounter ourselves, especially with with being online. And so most of us tend to just kind of go through the day somewhat ad hoc, you know, and we have like a little bit of a schedule. We have some outline, but we don’t necessarily have a plan for how we respond to, like different requests and things that come up. And so maybe it’s helpful and you could do this very structured or rigid, like or not. Maybe it’s very loose to just think about what are the rules of engagement for how I spend my time. And, you know, if I have chosen to prioritize something, then, you know, what does that actually look like? So, you know, I talked to a couple of people who were like training for a marathon, for example. And so if they do that, they have like it’s going to require a certain blocks of time for the training, and it’s kind of non-negotiable.
Chris Guillebeau 00:36:02 Like, you can miss some training sessions, but you can’t miss too many of them. Like, you have to make this a big part of your life. And so maybe your rule of engagement is like, you do this, you know, first thing in the morning before anything else, or if that’s not possible for you. I think that one of the people I talked to, you know, she had to do her training, like after work. And so that was a little bit hard because she’s tempted to just like crash out after work and do other stuff. But she’s like, no, no, I have to kind of set this up in a way that there’s a show I like to watch, and I really enjoy that show. I don’t feel guilty about watching that show. I’m not going to immediately come home from work and like, go sit on the couch. I’m going to do my, you know, workouts first and then I’m going to switch to that. So that’s just one example.
Chris Guillebeau 00:36:39 But I think there’s lots of ways to think about, you know, setting up rules of engagement for yourself that that again serve you. It’s not just designed to like make you work harder. They need to like, serve your overall like interests.
Eric Zimmer 00:36:49 Do you have some for yourself?
Chris Guillebeau 00:36:51 Yeah. Do I have some for myself? I think one thing is I tend to do my best work in the mornings like my creative work. So I try to do like calls or conversations a little bit later. I try to like always, like when people ask for a call, I’m like, can we do it at this at this time? Like, these are times I’m available. I always work with lists. Like I constantly have a list next to me and I’m like, okay, I’m doing it. This is what I need to do. I’ve got three things I need to do today. What are those three things I’m going to feel good about myself if I get like, these three things done. There’s a lot of other stuff I would like to do.
Chris Guillebeau 00:37:23 But, you know, if I get to that, that’s great. Here are the things that I, that I need to do. And so I’m going to try to avoid, you know, too many distractions or other things until those things are done. It’s pretty common, I guess, but I also feel like it works.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:35 Yeah, yeah. One of mine is I generally can’t say yes to anything without consideration.
Chris Guillebeau 00:37:44 Okay. That’s great. Wow.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:45 Right. Because there’s a ton of things I want to say yes to. Like if you presented me an idea, if you’re like, Eric, why don’t you come hang out and we’ll go do this for two months? I’d be like, yes, because I want to spend time with you, I like you. That sounds great. Yeah. And I can’t consider those things outside the context of my life. I just in my brain, I’m like, I want to do it. Sounds fun. And I might already have nine other things to do that.
Eric Zimmer 00:38:12 Right. Or and so for me that’s been one is like even though I’m enthusiastic about something. Back to our point before not everything fits right. And so I have to look and be like okay, well I can’t do that and do that and do that. And so just learning to be like, I’m really interested, let me get back to you. As, like as a starting rule was like a rule of engagement.
Chris Guillebeau 00:38:33 That’s smart. I’ll make a suggestion for the listeners. Something that I’ve heard from a lot of people has been helpful. When you’re asked to do something that is far in advance, whether it’s a month in advance or three months or however long, we tend to say yes automatically just because it’s far in advance, you know? Right. Or we think, oh, this is okay. You know, maybe I want to go to this person’s wedding. You know, in three months or six months, or maybe it’s a work obligation. Or maybe it’s. It could be anything.
Chris Guillebeau 00:39:00 Right. And so we say yes. Not really thinking about our future self, you know, or like, like maybe my future self will want to do that. So then of course, like the time comes up and you’re like, oh, this is on my calendar, I don’t know. And then you’re like, should I go and not really enjoy it or do I back out? But I have to have that conversation. So to avoid a lot of that, it’s very helpful to think about future commitments as if they were happening like now, like tomorrow or the next day. You know, if somebody says you want to do this thing, imagine if it was coming up very soon in the near future. You know, would you say yes? And if you would, that’s great. Then you’re like, yeah, of course I would love to do that in three months or whatever. But if your answer is no, you know, the way you feel is probably not going to change. You know, over however much the time is, you’re still going to feel the same way.
Chris Guillebeau 00:39:44 So maybe now it’s like now you have an opportunity up front, not commit to that thing because, you know, okay, I’m not going to want it to do it later. So treat future obligations as if they were happening very soon. And I think that also creates long term. You’re buying yourself some time now and you are thinking more about your future self.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:00 That’s a really great idea. I think it’s also a really great idea, because we always assume that life in the future will be calmer. Right, right, right. Exactly right. We’re like, oh yeah, well, three months from now I’ll be past, you know. Oh, I’ll be past my book launch. Things will settle down that.
Chris Guillebeau 00:40:17 This is the time for this and this is oh, it’s the holidays. That’s it’s going to get things are always busy.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:21 Things are always. Exactly. Yeah. There’s always too much I want to talk about the reverse bucket list because you’ve put a lot of things in front of you, like, I want to do this, I want to do that right.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:32 Like you, you’re striving at things. But talk to me about the value of the reverse bucket list and how that’s been helpful for you personally.
Chris Guillebeau 00:40:40 Yeah. So I am a future oriented person, or at least that’s my default state. I’m always thinking about what’s next, and in some ways that’s fine and healthy in other ways. You know, I’m not really, you know, appreciating the present moment or reflecting on like, good things in my life that have already happened. So I should I should say first the reverse bucket list. It’s kind of exactly like it sounds. The bucket list that everybody’s familiar with is like all these things I want to do in my life one day, and I want to go to Portugal for five weeks, and I want to ride the hot air balloon and learn to speak French and all these things. And so Reverse Bucket List is looking back and like, what are the cool things I’ve already done? Yeah. And, you know, it’s a bucket list. It can be anything.
Chris Guillebeau 00:41:22 It’s like people often think about adventurous things and I think that’s helpful. But it could also be, you know, I made a really good relationship choice, you know, x number of years ago or something, or I was in a difficult spot and I found my way out of it. or. Yeah. Just anything that you are proud of. And when you look back. And so what I found when people do this as an activity, it’s like, just take some time and write down, you know, it’s been 15 minutes and write down the things you were proud of in your life that that you had some choice or decision making ability or some initiative you took to make those happen. People remember stuff that they have completely forgotten, and it’s usually like really big things in their life too, which is funny. You know, it’s just like they’re not thinking about those things. And so I think it’s just a way to to appreciate yourself more, to be more grateful for, you know, who you have allowed and enabled yourself to become.
Chris Guillebeau 00:42:11 And maybe it also helps you think a little bit about like, oh, you know, that was a good thing or a good feeling or a good, you know, sentiment or something. Maybe. Maybe I want more of that in my life. How can I get closer to to that when I did that thing, you know, when I was 20 or 30 or 15 or however old, like I want to do more of that. So for me it was very helpful just because, as I said, I’m always thinking about what’s to come. I don’t always like nostalgia. Sometimes I’m like distrustful of it. But when I did the reverse bucket list, I was like, oh, I have done a couple cool things, you know? That’s nice.
Eric Zimmer 00:42:43 Yeah. One of the things I love about your writing is it’s very practical. It’s also there’s a lot of self-reflection in it. And one of the sections that really caught me was you sort of describing how for years you were I mean, you said a goal to visit every country in the world, right? So that’s a pretty itinerant type lifestyle.
Eric Zimmer 00:43:06 And how you did that for a while. And then life sort of switched and you sort of stayed in one place and did the same thing a lot. Like, I don’t know how many podcast episodes you did, you probably did more podcast episodes in like three years than I did in like 11 or something. Right? Then how you found yourself on the other side of that kind of thinking back to that you that used to do more things right? And I love this idea of sort of shifting between these things. Can you talk a little bit for you? Because this is a problem I have with me. It’s balancing novelty and and the future and all these things that we’re talking about, along with the ability to be present, to be consistent, to be here alive now. And I sense that in that section from you, that challenge.
Chris Guillebeau 00:43:51 Yeah. I mean, I think there’s just a there’s a creative tension to it. And I don’t know if it’s balanced that we’re all seeking, you know, like balance is like balance feels very mid, you know, I mean it feels very like like I want to live on the edge, you know.
Chris Guillebeau 00:44:05 But maybe, maybe it’s the edge that changes. Like I want to live on the edge. But what that looks like is different you know over over time. And yeah, I mean, I’ve tried to think about, you know, how you framed that question. And I was just kind of remembering. I was like, oh, yeah, I was doing all those countries. And then the podcast and, and also the podcast I was doing was very simple. It’s not like these in-depth conversations like you’re doing. Just to be clear, I was doing like very short episodes. I guess some of it is a grass is greener thing. Some of it is like, oh, when I’m doing this, then I missed this. You know, I think another part of it is I personally am comfortable having a portfolio of things that I do, and I’m not a kind of person that’s like, this is my niche, this is my lane. I have to do this. I have a number of good friends who have been very, very successful, you know, in writing books or in life or in work or business by saying like, this is my narrow topic and I’m going to and I think that’s admirable for people who have that bent.
Chris Guillebeau 00:45:00 But for me, I’m, I’m not that. And so for, you know, whatever fulfillment I have tends to be and like following something for a while and going deep with it and hopefully connecting it to other things. So it’s not completely out of left field, but it’s not going to be the same thing that I’ve been doing before, or else I’m just going to end up feeling kind of, I don’t know, bored or kind of stuck and not challenged. I do want to be challenged. I guess that’s part of it.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:25 The other thing that you’ve been doing is writing a really good Substack called A Year of Mental Health, which I encourage people to check out. You’ve been doing a post with three times a week about mental health for the last year.
Chris Guillebeau 00:45:38 Yep. It’s a little bit of my own journey and such. And then also other people’s experiences and just trying to provide some tools and activities for reflection.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:46 So what are the posts on there? Recently that I saw was about this very thing.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:50 It was about specialists and and and generalists. And in it you make sort of the point, like if you’ve read this far, you’re not a specialist, right?
Chris Guillebeau 00:45:59 I think most people are not. I think most of us are not.
Eric Zimmer 00:46:02 I agree. I mean, on one hand, you could say I’ve been in the same lane for all this time and the show’s broad enough to allow me to sort of pull on a bunch of different threads to me, within reason. Sure. So today, what’s your process of thinking about, like, here’s what I want to do next year, or here’s what I want to do over three years. Like, how are you walking through that, knowing that being a generalist means there’s there’s a bunch of different places and directions you could go.
Chris Guillebeau 00:46:34 Well, first I have a comment on what you mentioned about your show. Like you’ve been able to go on a different, you know, go pull on a few different threads and such. Well, a lot of different threads, but yet it’s still somewhat connected.
Chris Guillebeau 00:46:44 I think that’s really key. I think choosing the right theme was really critical for you, right? And you chose a theme that is is deliberately broad, yet it also means something. And I think that that was the key. And so I encourage people to like if you’re trying to figure it out, like I’ve got this thing and this thing and this thing, it’s like what unites these things? Like what brings them together. And so that’s like when I started the blog the Art of nonconformity long ago, it was kind of like that. It was like, oh, I’m interested in this. Like the tagline is like unconventional strategies for life, work and travel, which is like the opposite of a niche, right? It’s like life, work and travel. It’s like everything, you know, right? Yeah, right. Hopefully there’s like a controlling idea there. You know, the controlling idea. I borrowed that phrase from Don Miller. He’s really good about this. you know, it’s like, what is it that you want people to take away? And for me, it was like, you don’t have to live your life the way other people expect.
Chris Guillebeau 00:47:37 Within that framework we can do a lot, you know, but yet it’s also, you know, we can go in different directions. So as for how I decide, I think at this point, how do I decide? I mean, I there are certain mediums that I like. I love writing books. I’m excited about your book. Next spring, make sure you give me a galley. I would love to see it in advance. We can help. I love writing books. That’s a medium that I have been with for a while. I like doing events. I have a new event that I started earlier this year and I’m doing round two next year. It’s all about bringing neurodivergent people together, and so there’s a lot of planning that goes with that. So that like these kind of cycles, they tend to take up a lot of space in a good way. I don’t know, I try to leave room for like 1 or 2 other big things each year, and it’s not always super strategic.
Chris Guillebeau 00:48:25 I don’t know, like you said, three years, I’m not sure three years from now what those things will be. Yeah, I guess I think in like a 1 to 2 year cycle. And I do like a little bit of an annual review every December where I’m looking back on my year and looking ahead. And what does this month look like? What does this month look like? Okay. I have a book coming out, so I’m doing book tours. Okay. This is event season. Oh, this is like a little down space so I can use that time. There’s like 60 days here where I can, you know, build some other creative project. And it’s not like I’m doing nothing else. Like there’s still like, you know, probably 20 hours a week. That’s kind of consistent throughout the year. But then I try to have this, like good block of time. That kind of varies a little bit.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:04 You have a chapter title that I think is funny. Be right back.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:08 I’m just going to disappear and never return.
Chris Guillebeau 00:49:11 What is what’s that about?
Eric Zimmer 00:49:13 What’s that about? I mean, I think we all relate to it on some level. You hear it and you’re like, oh yeah, okay.
Chris Guillebeau 00:49:17 Well, right. I think it’s about avoidance and I feel like I should do another book. Like all on avoidance.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:23 Yes.
Chris Guillebeau 00:49:24 Just. Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:25 Yes.
Chris Guillebeau 00:49:26 Just because I think I began that chapter, you know, talking about these stories of people, there was a British man who was facing this prison sentence for fraud. And so obviously he’s going to prison. That’s a big deal. But it wasn’t like a life sentence, you know, it was like relatively minor. And he pretended to be in a coma to avoid going to prison. And his his act was so good that he actually was hospitalized. I think it was for like more than ten days and was convincing, you know, to doctors and nurses. I don’t even know how you would do that. Right.
Chris Guillebeau 00:49:58 But and he was eventually caught like a few weeks later. He’s like shopping, you know, on CCTV. But basically he went, you know, to such extreme effort to, you know, avoid something. And obviously that was a negative thing he was avoiding. But still. So I haven’t faked my own death. There’s other stories about people faking their death to like, you know, avoid stuff. So I haven’t done that, but I have been pretty good at avoiding things and like difficult conversations or things I should do. Or there’s a story I think about, like when I was really young and I started this business and I hated talking on the phone. I was so bad at talking on the phone. Like phone anxiety is actually a real thing. I don’t know if I had that, but I just, you know, if I had to make a phone call, I would have to psych myself up for like 20 minutes. I’d be, like, holding the phone and just practicing like a script, you know? And these are not for difficult conversations.
Chris Guillebeau 00:50:45 This is just like a normal, like, I don’t know, sort of sales process, but not even like a cold call. It’s like somebody wanted to talk to me about something. It was very hard. And so sometimes there was one time when somebody wanted to buy something and I just all they wanted was a phone call and I couldn’t do it, you know, I couldn’t do it. So this is a little bit of a long story, but I guess what I was coming to is like, this chapter is about how avoiding things I mean, not maybe not like a mind blowing revelation, but the more you avoid, the more space it takes up in your brain. And if you can find ways of compelling yourself to make progress, then you will feel better. And so one of those ways we talked about the reverse bucket list. I also have a to dread list, which is like all the things I am dreading. And it’s like, oh, I need to do. I need to send this email.
Chris Guillebeau 00:51:26 I need to make this call. there’s this, you know, technical tool that I’ve been paying for for two years that I don’t need. I need to go and cancel it, but they’re going to make me jump through some hoop, you know? So I need to like, do so. Making it to dread list and working through that list is very helpful.
Eric Zimmer 00:51:43 Yeah, avoidance is really such a profoundly bad strategy and yet such a completely compelling approach. Right? I think, you know, it’s just it just makes a lot of sense. And, you know, the more that we avoid, the thing gets bigger and bigger in our mind. I’ve got to talk about, like, rules of engagement or I have a rule I don’t I don’t follow it perfectly. But the general rule is if I’ve decided that something needs to be done that I really don’t want to do, the decision point is over. Yeah, I try and do it as fast as I can because I’m going to carry the dread all that time.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:27 If I just do it, it’s gonna it’s gonna suck. Either way, I also ask myself, like, are you ever going to want to do this? And if the answer is no, never. Because we get into that, like, I’ll feel more like it. Or maybe right if I’m never, ever going to want to do it, the sooner the better, because I just minimize the total units of suffering that go into that thing. But it’s really hard.
Multiple Speakers 00:52:52 It’s hard.
Chris Guillebeau 00:52:53 It’s great. I mean, I think it’s great that you’ve been able to like, do that. I mean, I think that’s one of those things. I hear that and I’m like, oh, I love that. I wish, I want to do that. Will I do it? I don’t know if I.
Multiple Speakers 00:53:02 Will.
Chris Guillebeau 00:53:03 Because to go back to the time anxiety, we can always feel the time with something always, you know.
Multiple Speakers 00:53:08 Yeah.
Chris Guillebeau 00:53:08 So it’s very easy to just okay, I need to do that and I’m going to do that.
Chris Guillebeau 00:53:13 Like I’m going to do that. Right. You’re telling yourself this, I will do that thing. But I also have these other things. Let me just do these other things. And then you just it never happens. I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow, you know.
Eric Zimmer 00:53:21 Yeah. It’s funny also because you talk about this idea in the book, friction loops in these loops, and I want to get to that in just a second. But so many of these things that I end up putting off that then cause avoidance and dread, it’s because there’s some friction in them. Right. Like picking up the phone is, is some degree if there’s just enough friction in it, even if it’s not a bad thing or returning a package to the UPS store, there’s just enough friction. I can’t tell you how many things I’ve initiated the online return, and I never take it to the thing. And then.
Multiple Speakers 00:53:57 I actually.
Eric Zimmer 00:53:58 Months later, I’m like, well, oh boy, it’s too late now.
Multiple Speakers 00:54:01 Right.
Chris Guillebeau 00:54:02 Right. And yeah, sorry to interrupt. I was just thinking, you know, friction. I feel like companies these days deliberately introduce friction into the process to make it harder to return packages. Right. And, yes, technically, there’s a return policy, and technically it is. You know, you can do it, but, you know, the more roadblocks they set up, they understand that the breakage will be higher and fewer people will actually return. And so it’s part of like in acidification, you know, in the digital age. So we want to move beyond. So we have friction loops in our life. And you know, what can we do to set up these loops, which is like what’s the opposite of a friction loop? What makes it easy for me to do this thing? Like, you know, we can identify all the things that are in the way of this thing, but what would it be like to create a process that actually makes it easy and simple for me to do it relatively?
Eric Zimmer 00:54:46 And so in the book, what are you focusing on with friction loops or ease loops? What is an example of a.
Eric Zimmer 00:54:53 I guess we just gave an example of a friction loop, but what’s an ease loop look like in comparison?
Chris Guillebeau 00:54:58 I think it could be as simple as like, you know, what is the the one thing I can do at the start of the day, you know, to begin the day, well, what is the task? And let’s not make it too many tasks. Let’s just say the one thing that will be helpful. What is a way that will help me settle into creative work? If you’re doing some kind of deep creative work, like what are the rituals you need to set up to, you know, to guide yourself into that? Maybe it’s like turning off the notifications on your phone. Maybe it’s making coffee or tea or, you know, making sure you have water. You know, whatever that looks like for you. I think if you design your life around, if you understand that life is about friction and ease and like, where can you create more ease in the things that you want to do, especially the things that could be difficult? You know, whether it’s the things you’re dreading or just the work that requires more than just your immediate attention, that work that requires you to kind of focus for a longer period of time.
Chris Guillebeau 00:55:49 How can you create ease?
Eric Zimmer 00:55:51 Do you happen to have the book handy?
Chris Guillebeau 00:55:52 I do, I have it right here.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:54 Okay. Can I ask you to read a section?
Multiple Speakers 00:55:57 Sure.
Chris Guillebeau 00:55:57 Nobody’s ever done.
Multiple Speakers 00:55:58 That.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:58 Okay, we’re gonna wrap up, but I would love to have you read the ending of the book, because I think it’s a very realistic and yet hopeful view of our relationship with time.
Multiple Speakers 00:56:11 Thank you.
Chris Guillebeau 00:56:11 Eric, and thank you for this wonderful conversation as well. I’m a big fan of the show and it’s great to be back. So thanks to all the listeners for listening. You suspected there wasn’t enough time for everything and you were right. This knowledge can be your advantage, your secret strength. If you keep it close to your heart, honoring its truth, it can bring you peace in the midst of overwhelm. It can help you remember that it’s okay to not do it all, because in fact, such a goal is impossible. And trying to do everything is what is stressing you out.
Chris Guillebeau 00:56:40 This cycle will not magically resolve itself, so you need to step in and put it to risk. But just as there is not time for everything, there is still time for so much. There is time for risks, leaps and adventures. There is time to advance, retreat, regroup. The days that lie ahead of you are filled with possibilities. There is time for big ideas. There is still time for dreaming. There is time to walk outside and look up at the sky. There is time to celebrate the miracle of everyday living. There is time to get closer to the people you love. There is time to love someone new. There are still figs on the tree waiting for you to select them. Above all, there is time for choosing. Truly. There is time for a life well lived.
Eric Zimmer 00:57:24 That’s beautiful. I think I’ll just end it right there with that beautiful and hopeful message. Chris, thank you so much. It’s such a pleasure to have you back on again, and I really enjoyed the book.
Eric Zimmer 00:57:36 We’ll have links in the show notes to the book. We’ll have links to your Substack, your mental health and the other places people can find you online.
Multiple Speakers 00:57:43 Awesome. Thank you so much.
Eric Zimmer 00:57:44 Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I’d love for you to share it with a friend. Share it from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don’t have a big budget, and I’m certainly not a celebrity. But we have something even better. And that’s you just hit the share button on your podcast app, or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community.
