In this episode, Yung Pueblo discusses relationship mistakes and how to love better. He explores how attachments can masquerade as love and how true connection requires flexibility, sharing this powerful insight: attachment is just a deep form of inflexibility—it can look like love, but it’s often about control. Diego also delves into why growth, kindness, and compassion are green flags in a partner, and how to advocate for personal needs without clinging too tightly to rigid expectations. This insightful discussion offers practical wisdom for anyone looking to build healthier, more fulfilling relationships.
Key Takeaways:
- Attachment vs. Love – Attachment can often masquerade as love, but it’s really a deep form of inflexibility and control. True love allows for freedom and growth.
- The Power of Emotional Flexibility – Our ability to adapt, shift perspectives, and embrace change is essential for healthy relationships.
- The Role of Personal Growth in Love – Your relationship is only as strong as your willingness to grow. When both partners prioritize self-awareness, connection deepens.
- Kindness and Humility as Green Flags – Instead of looking for perfection in a partner, look for their willingness to grow, their kindness in difficult moments, and their ability to see beyond their own perspective.
- The Danger of Comparison – Social media can create unrealistic expectations in relationships. Instead of comparing, focus on what truly matters in your connection.
- Balancing Freedom and Commitment – Love thrives when we allow each other to change and evolve while staying committed to the relationship.
Connect with Yung Pueblo Website | Instagram
Diego Perez is a meditator and #1 New York Times bestselling author who is widely known by his pen name, Yung Pueblo. He has sold over 1.5 million books worldwide that have been translated into over 25 languages. Online he has an audience of over 4 million people. His writing focuses on the power of self-healing, creating healthy relationships, and the wisdom that comes when we truly work on knowing ourselves. Diego’s new book is How to Love Better: The Path to Deeper Connection Through Growth, Kindness, and Compassion.
If you enjoyed this episode with Yung Pueblo, check out these other episodes:
How to Feel Lighter with Yung Pueblo
The Art of Poetry and Prose with David Whyte
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Episode Transcript:
Yung Pueblo 00:00
If you really want a relationship to be nourishing and happy and compassionate, you got to really work on letting go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you’re increasing not only your freedom, but your partner’s potential for freedom.
Chris Forbes 00:22
Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy or fear, we see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf?
Eric Zimmer 01:07
What if the biggest thing getting in the way of love is the way we hold onto it? That was one of the biggest insights I took from this conversation with Diego Perez, better known as young pueblo. He said something that really stuck with me, attachment is just a deep form of inflexibility. It can look like love, but it’s often about control. And that really hit me. It reminded me of something my partner, Ginny has said, which is that when we fixate on one specific thing, like a cupcake, nothing else will satisfy us, but when we step back and recognize what we actually need underneath it, so many possibilities open up. That’s flexibility. And in this episode, Diego shares how meditation reshaped his relationships, why growth kindness and compassions are green flags in relationships, and how we can advocate for our needs without clinging too tightly to our stories. This was such a warm and insightful conversation, and I know you’ll take something valuable from it. I’m Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed.
Hi Diego. Welcome to the show.
Hey Eric, thank you for having me.
Eric: Yeah, it’s a pleasure to have you back on this time around, we’re going to be discussing your book, How To Love better, the path to deeper connection through growth kindness and compassion, and so we’ll get to that in a minute. But let’s start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there’s a grandparent who’s talking with her grandchild, and they say, in life, there’s two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, Well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
Yung Pueblo: Yeah, I mean, that parable is really so powerful, and it’s nice, you know, hearing it once again and reflecting on it, and immediately it made me think back to how the wolf that I was afraid of was fear itself, like the fear to feel my own emotions. And I think what it really means is like embracing the Good Wolf, embracing like the good qualities of life, is really just having the resilience to feel, just the resilience to feel the simplicity of that and how that’s turned my life in a much better direction.
Eric: The thing that comes through in this book, very clear is your meditation practice. It’s, it’s really emphasized, I think you say in the book you’ve been at it for about 12 years, and that you have something like 12,000 hours of practice, which that’s a lot of diligence, right? I assume some of that gets stacked up in you know, longer silent retreats, but that’s a very dedicated and focused practice. As someone who’s been a long time meditator myself, I do find that the motivation wanes from time to time for you. How does it stay high enough to keep that level of continuous practice up.
Yung Pueblo 05:00
I guess I’m really motivated by the results. Honestly, I think it’s the best investment I’ve ever made. It’s, you know, better than investing in the s, p5 100. It’s just like such a strong result oriented practice where I see how when I go to retreats, I started making better decisions when I was back home, and then when I started meditating daily, my capacity and my creativity started expanding. And not only that, on the individual level, but on the interpersonal level, like all my relationships started deepening. So there are definitely times where, you know, it’s more difficult than others to sit my you know, two hours a day, but I always get it done, because I know that I’m just better off for it. And it’s almost like, you know, feeding myself daily, like I have to feed myself, bathe myself, and at the same time, I also have to tend to my mind. So it feels pretty essential.
Eric Zimmer 05:13
Have you had any time in there where you have slipped a little bit and done less of it and then been like, oh, boy, I can really tell the difference. Or are you still just sort of running off of, I know this is really good for me. Keep doing it kind of thing.
Yung Pueblo 05:28
Yeah, honestly, it would take a lot to make me not do it, but I haven’t. I’ve been doing it now for like. I started meditating in 2012 and I started going to retreats, but then I started meditating daily in the beginning of 2015 and it’s been ongoing now for, what is that like, almost 10 years in the summer, yeah, so, yeah. I mean, I’ve been, I think it was just like, you know, I’d have to be, like, really sick or something like that, or in a coma or or, you know, if I had, if I had a child, and they, like, needed me, yeah, you know, 24/7 or something like that. But because right now I have that, that luxury of, you know, not having kids and being healthy, it gets the priority it needs.
Eric Zimmer 06:10
Got it all right? Let’s move into the book itself, about how to love better. We’re going to explore some of the big ideas in the book, but I want to start with you talk about something called green flags in relationships. We’ve heard the term red flag in a relationship, but you know, three green flags that you talk about are growth, kindness and compassion. And I’m wondering if you could share a little bit about why you chose those and why they’re important for relationships,
Yung Pueblo 06:41
yeah, I think, you know, they felt really critical, especially the, you know, the growth one, where you get into a relationship, and as soon as you’re in there, you start seeing very clearly what you’re good at and what you’re not good at. You know that you can see if you lack the skill of listening well, or if you lack patience and whatnot. And I think embracing your own growth and understanding that it’s really a lifelong journey, whether you’re in partnership or not, that that’s going to help you just show up as the best version of yourself. And I think a lot of times people want to be in a relationship with someone who has their stuff figured out. But the reality is, I, like everyone comes into a relationship quite imperfect. And instead of wanting someone to like, you know, have all the emotional skill set and all of that figured out, instead what you’re really looking for is that they embrace growth, that they see, and then can hold themselves accountable, and then can step up and repair what they need to repair. The other element, you know, one of kindness, is that when you’re in proximity to someone, whomever you’re in proximity to, whether it’s a roommate, whether it’s a family member, whether it’s someone you’re you know in an intimate relationship with, the person that you’re closest to is going to see the best of you and the worst of you so being intentional about having the vulnerability to let someone see you in your down moments, but also still doing your best to be sweet with them, to give them your kindness, to treat them gently, because that kindness that you can receive from another person, it helps you move through the ups and downs of life. And then the last element of compassion. I’m speaking about a very specific form of compassion where you are doing your best to step outside of your perspective, to see the perspective of another person. Because this is the fundamental skill set that you need to be able to solve arguments when they arise.
Eric Zimmer 08:46
I was going to ask about the difference between compassion and kindness. So in this case, kindness is sort of all the gestures and the general orientation towards a person in your general interactions, yeah, the care, the gentleness, yeah. And compassion is the ability to say, Hang on, I don’t necessarily agree with what they’re saying, but I’m gonna pause, and I’m going to perhaps elevate myself a little bit and try and see their side of it before I have a reaction.
Yung Pueblo 09:15
Oh exactly. You know, it’s an element of humility, where you understand that, okay, I may be having my own set of experiences, but my perception is not perfect. I don’t know exactly what’s going on. I may know for myself, but let me take a moment to really listen to my partner and hear how things are moving for them.
Eric Zimmer 09:31
Humility is a word that you use a lot in this book, and it is not a word that shows up a lot of places very often. Now I got sober in a 12 step program, and you know, one of the steps has the word humility, or humble in it. And the aa big book talks about humility a fair amount, but I don’t see it very often. Why is that a word that resonates with you? And maybe before you tell us why it resonates with you, tell us what it means to you.
Yung Pueblo 09:58
You know, it’s funny. I’m glad that you’re like. Catching on that too, because I find that it’s not a very popular word. Like, if you try to write a post and you’re sort of building that post around the word humility, like it is just gonna flop, even for your audience, yeah, for sure. And that’s why, like, you know, a lot of the stuff that you’ll see on my Instagram account, it’s to pique your interest and to hopefully so that you can develop a sense of trust, so that you then give me your patience to then hear about subjects like humility and how important they are. I mean, to me, humility is the simple art of fully understanding that I don’t know everything, and I have a lot to learn, and that my perspectives and whatnot, what my views, they’re not complete, they’re not perfect, and that it’s worth learning and communicating with others to be able to expand what I know. That’s a great definition. Yeah, you know, not only is that like critical in your own growth journey, but in your relationship coming into it like, I think about it as if there’s another green flag, it’s when you are really getting to know somebody you see that you know they don’t act like they know everything that they ask questions that they’re like, curious about. You know, tell me more. Like, tell me more is one of my favorite sentences. Yep,
Eric Zimmer 11:13
the definition that I had heard for a while is slightly different. I think it’s just a slightly different orientation of the same idea, which is that it’s about having a very accurate assessment of your good and bad qualities, right? It’s not about knowing all about what’s bad about you. It’s not about denying what’s good about you. It’s about having a relatively clear picture of here’s the type of person I am, but I really love that idea of just recognizing you don’t know everything, and being open like that is such a important skill. And talk about, like green flags, it is one of the things that attracts me to other people in any way, shape or form, and perhaps handles me from people who think they know everything, like, I’m allergic to it a little bit, you know, like, almost to the point that I need to, like, get over it a little bit, but it’s one of my least favorite character traits. I’m
Yung Pueblo 12:07
with you, and I think when I encounter people who have that humility to learn more from others, to me, it’s an immediate sign of intelligence and that they have the sort of, like, mental capacity and framework for for higher intelligence to be able to, like, keep building on complexity, because any views that any human is going to develop, they’re just going to be very tilted, tainted, imperfect, like we can only see so far. That’s why we need each other.
Eric Zimmer 12:36
So let’s move into one of the first key ideas in the book, to me, which is that our own personal growth is really foundational to a good relationship.
Yung Pueblo 12:48
You know, to me, it was quite shocking that I went into meditating for my own personal development, for my own healing, and I started receiving the results of that pretty quickly. I started seeing that my mind felt lighter. Self awareness started developing. But it was a surprise, a good surprise, to see that it was immediately affecting my relationships in a very positive way, you know, started deepening my relationship with my parents, my relationship with my wife, who was then my girlfriend, started getting deeper, even relationships with friends, and it started really dawning on me how my relationship was just showing me so much of where I needed to grow, and if I refused to grow in these areas, like listening better, having more patience, pausing, slowing down, my reactions to just, you know, give myself time to think, if I didn’t accept that challenge to grow, then the relationship is just going to keep staying hard and probably getting harder. So, you know, in my mind, there’s no other alternative than to understand, like, whether you meditate or not, like, you know, there’s a lot of room for growth in a relationship for every individual.
Eric Zimmer 14:00
Well, you could just focus all your energy on getting the other person to grow and change. Does that work?
Yung Pueblo 14:08
And I know, I know from experience, yeah,
Eric Zimmer 14:10
that’s often the standard approach.
Yung Pueblo 14:12
The first six years of my relationship with my wife, it was just like a giant blame game. You know? It was just like, How can I figure out, how can I make this tension in my mind your fault? Yeah, and we never won. Neither of us won.
Eric Zimmer 14:28
No, it’s funny to me, and I laugh from having been in this exact situation at times where I’m sitting there learning something new about growth and thinking in my mind like, you know, who really needs to hear this?
Yung Pueblo 14:45
Oh, I know. And the answer is, me. It’s like, it’s you, the person who’s looking in the mirror.
Eric Zimmer 14:49
You make an interesting point, though, about how growth from both people is sort of important, and I’ve seen this happen a lot. My peers are older than yours. But I’ve seen this happen a lot with people you know, somewhere near my age, the kids are finally up and out of the house, and one of the partners just really embarks on like growth and change and wanting to be a different person in a lot of ways. And the other person just says, Think, I’m just gonna stay right here, yeah, and that becomes really problematic and really painful for everybody involved, because, on one hand, you can’t fault the person who’s like, but we’ve been in this marriage all these years, and you were this way, and now you’re different, and you’re expecting me to come along like all of a sudden, right? And yet, you can’t fault somebody either for being like, I want to change. I want to grow and and I think we can talk about this a little bit more later in the conversation, but I think some of figuring out, is this workable? Am I okay with this in those situations where it’s a little more nebulous, right? Like, nobody’s done anything wrong, right? Both people in the relationship are kind and good people, yeah, you know. And figuring that out is really difficult, yeah.
Yung Pueblo 16:05
And I think, you know, it’s funny, because that even comes back to humility in a certain degree, where you have to learn to be okay with people growing in their own way, and also, and also growing at their own speed, yes, like, we’re not going to grow this, like we have such different conditioning, you know, some people have experienced immense amounts of traumas. Others less so. And so that means, like, you know, when you’re trying to grow, like, developing some qualities might be super, super difficult, like someone developing patients when all they’ve known for years is survival, yeah, and they’re just like, you know, trying to dodge things so that they can not be hurt. So I think understanding that one, we don’t have to change the same way. We don’t have to change at the same speed, and that growth for you may look super different, yeah, for me, like, if someone is really adamant about I don’t know, like meditating or going to therapy or just doing whatever it is, and maybe another person just needs to accept they just need to accept themselves as they are, and that can be one of the biggest growth moments for them in their life, because they’ve been striving, striving, striving, and, you know, trying to be a very productive member of society or whatnot, and to just be able to accept yourself as you are, could open up a world of peace inside of you, and I’ve seen it work in a lot of different ways. You know, with couples of all ages, where one person is really interested and takes care of themselves by hiking and being in nature, doing art, other people who really enjoy therapy, really enjoy meditating. I think people just have different tools that connect with them well.
Eric Zimmer 17:44
Yeah, I mean, one of the things I’ve realized as my partner and I have been together longer, and I think we’re in essentially our 10th year, is in the beginning in a lot of relationships, I think there’s a certain amount of you sort of move towards each other because you’re trying to connect and and then over time, if things are good, you this is another theme we’re going to get to, right, this ability to sort of have freedom to grow and change and move in a relationship. And so with my partner and I, Jenny, I’ve noticed that we have grown apart in some areas. And I don’t mean a part as a couple. I mean like, I like this, and she likes that. Yeah, in the beginning we might have both been a little bit more like meeting on that, and now there’s a little bit more like just letting the other person be like, Oh, I like this, and me making sure that I like this only means I like this, not you should like this, right, right? Like, you know, thinking that the choices that I make are somehow more conducive to a good life or whatever, and realizing, like, that’s preposterous. Like, no, it’s not. It’s really preference and who we are as people, and allowing that to sort of be that’s something I continue to learn.
Yung Pueblo 19:03
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Eric, because that really to me, it’s a sign of very healthy love. Because, from my perspective, you’re not only getting the safety of commitment right, clear commitment towards each other, but because that is so firm and established, you have the freedom to explore, to explore your interests, to like, just go and, you know, see what’s out there in the world, and still be able to come back home and have that nourishment of your partnership there. And I think a lot of people get scared by the word freedom, because you immediately think, Oh, they’re gonna start sleeping with other people and dating other people, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the freedom to like, let your preferences change, to let like, even something as simple as like what you like to watch on TV, and for it to like become something different, or what you like to read, for it to you know, evolve and change over time and and. Even the way that you like to show up for people, and I think that’s one of the beauties, is like, if you’re really feeling nourished by your relationship, you will have that element of freedom to be able to continue evolving. And just because you don’t have the same tastes doesn’t mean you’re going to stop loving each other. I think it was one of the hardest journeys, something as simple, because in our relationship, you know, Sarah and I, we, like, had this long series of years where we really enjoyed moving lockstep with each other, just like we’re eating the same foods, doing the same exercises, like, you know, just like existing as similarly as possible. And that felt right for the time. But then we started learning that, oh, actually, the diet that she needs needs to be drastically different from my own, yeah, yeah. And the exercise that she needs is also not the same. And now, like, you know, we have learned the peculiarities that we need for the both of us to optimize and feel like our best version of ourselves, and it’s not the same. And I think, honestly, it was hard to accept in the beginning, but then I realized, Oh, this is actually like us actively caring for each other, is giving each other that freedom.
Eric Zimmer 21:10
So let’s go back to that a little bit. We’ve kind of hit on a few of the different points, but I want to talk about sort of between freedom and connection. So you know, you differentiate between love and what we would call attachment based behaviors. So first, let’s lay out kind of what we mean by that, because I don’t think we can have the right balance between freedom and connection if attachment is the thing that’s running the show.
Yung Pueblo 21:42
Totally, totally and just to clarify too, whomever is listening to we’re talking about not the Western psychology style of attachment that is quite popular nowadays, but we’re talking about the old school type of attachment that the Buddha put forward, you know, as one of the causes of misery and by attachment in the book, I’m talking about the craving for things to exist in a very particular way, you know. And that could mean like, you know, having your partner act in very specific ways, or having, you know, all the things that you love always be there, and you being, you know, clinging for all the things that you really enjoy to always exist, the rigidity of attachment, it’ll first manifest in your mind as a certain mental image. You know, this is what I want to happen. But the way it manifests through your actions is that it emerges as control. You know, you’re sort of like just really stiff about how you want things to exist. And if you really want a relationship to be nourishing and happy and compassionate, you got to really work on letting go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you’re increasing not only your freedom, but your partner’s potential for freedom.
Eric Zimmer 22:55
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I want to go back to what you said there about, we’re talking about attachment in a classic Buddhist sense, often translated as craving, is another word for it. And then saying, you know, we’re not talking about Western attachment, but in a sense, we are, I think, in that, if we talk about attachment styles, there’s one style that I never get my terms right, but it’s basically securely attached. That’s the good one. And then there’s, I think, avoidant and anxious attachment. And my favorite, which is, you do both, you’re completely confused, which is me like, I just Okay, that didn’t quite work. I’ll try the other one. Wait, that’s not working. I’ll try, yeah, like, bounce back and forth. Like they call it, like it’s not a term confused. It’s even better than that, because I do think that those styles that we’re describing are what happens when we don’t have the secure attachment. And it’s one thing to say, like, I want to give my partner all the freedom in the world, right? But like you said, that’s really hard to do if you don’t have some sort of secure attachment. But then, ironically, it’s very hard to have a true secure attachment when you’re interested in controlling your partner, right? It can be this difficult game because you’re wanting to control your partner. Because you’re afraid they’re going to move in a direction you don’t want, and that very active then controlling is causing them not to be securely attached to you.
Yung Pueblo 25:08
And it’s interesting, because I think those frameworks are really helpful to people, but I’m one who, you know, I honestly have an aversion to all labels, like I feel like human beings, they exist on such a wide spectrum that, like, one day I have secure attachments another deck and have anxious attachments, and it’s just like, you’re just going to be changing all the time. So to me, it’s like, how can I simplify my approach? And instead of focusing on attachments and expectations, why not just fully vocalize how I like my happiness to be supported and see where we can make commitments to each other, you know, like, if I can tell my wife, this is how I like my happiness to be supported, and she says, Oh, I can do X, Y and Z for you. And like, This feels good to me. This is a way that I can try to show up for you. And from commitments can come a level of security that has nothing to do with, you know, the coercion that sometimes happens from expectations or from attachments, where it’s like you’re demanding someone to really exist in a particular way for you, and instead, you’re just saying, like, these are my needs, and this is how they might relate to, like my past traumas, or how I’ve experienced life. And you know, from how these breakups and you know, these things that have happened that have really affected the way I show up now and how I’m currently working on them, but having things be clear and well informed between the two of you just really sets you up for success. Because, you know, expectations and attachments like, you don’t want things to be a mystery. You don’t want to set up traps for your partner. You want clarity for them?
Eric Zimmer 26:42
Yep, I have a few thoughts there. I also am not a huge fan of labels. I think they serve a purpose for a certain period of time. I think they help us see patterns that we get stuck into where it’s like, yes, okay, you know what, like? I don’t want to say I am that, but you know what, I keep doing that. So there’s a pattern there that that’s worth seeing, but they’re only useful, I think, until they start limiting you. The question here around attachment is this all sounds good in the I tell my partner the way I would like them to support my happiness, and they say yes, and then they support my happiness in that way. And everything’s great, except when it doesn’t quite work that way, meaning, like, these sort of nuanced things you get into in relationship, and I’m just going to pull out two cliches, right? One is one partner wants more sexual attachment than the other, more sexual contact than the other, like, it’s a connection point, right? The other would be somebody who says, like, I’d like my partner to be more emotionally expressive, right than they are. And those things are, there’s often still a tension there, and I think it gets tricky. At least I have found it tricky in my life to see when am I calmly advocating and stating what I would like in a relationship? When am I having an expectation and attachment or craving to things being a certain way? And it gets in that nuanced area where, like, you know, again, there’s the perfect world where, you know, we say what we want, we get it all the time. There’s the other world where we say what we want, we never get it. Those are pretty easy, right? But most of life happens in between those in relationships. So I’m curious how you think about particularly that like I’m stating what I want and my partner isn’t quite able to meet me there. It seems to keep coming up for me. How do I let that go? I just think that’s something I’ve been in, and I’ve seen others in that just gets trickier.
Yung Pueblo 28:47
Oh totally, totally. And it gets very nuanced, and it’s very situational to like the intrinsic qualities of your relationship, especially when you’re hearing different people’s advice, like, does it really match to your situation and the current conditions? Yeah, I think a lot of times, like one from my experience, like the arguments have decreased in terms of their level of tension, because we’re less attached. But often the arguments are the same. It’s like, we’re still, like, you know, argument about similar things over and over, and it’s because we have deeply ingrained patterns, you know, like, I’m more of a people person. Sarah is more reserved, like, I’m more forward. She’s, you know, a little less forward, and is just like more calmly, exists within herself. And there are these aspects and, you know, character types that we have, that we have to kind of work with, and what you end up finding is that you want to have a healthy balance of giving and receiving. And I think that’s where, like, a lot of the tension gets resolved, where, like, if you feel like you’re doing your part to care for your partner and you’re doing your best to. To meet their needs and meet the way that they like to be supported. That doesn’t mean you’re going to get 100% all the time. Yeah, right. That just means that you’re trying and you’re you have some clarity around it, but then there are going to be some months that are way harder than others, and you’re not going to be able to show up as well. But I think having the sense of like, one you’re not always going to get what you want. Like, you’re not like, that’s not what a relationship is. It means like you’re joining this journey and this like, in some ways, it’s a joyful challenge. They add so much beauty and harmony to your life and elevate your life. But it’s also it’s going to have its own ups and downs, and you’re just never expecting your partner to be perfect. You’re just expecting them to show up for you and have a degree of accountability when they make mistakes. You know, basically the simple accountability of apologizing and trying to change the behavior when something does go wrong. But I really think, like, you know, you just can’t expect things to always go your way, and if you do, then there’s a problem there. There’s something that you need to work on within yourself, because your partner is not like they’re a human being who also, you know, is going to ebb and flow in their energy, and they’re not always going to be able to give at the same rate. So we need to be mindful of that. You know, is there balance with our giving and receiving?
Eric Zimmer 31:15
Yeah, I have been in some, uh, distinctly unjoyful challenges also, in the past, my current one is a joyful challenge. I’ve been in the unjoyful challenge. There’s something you say, though that I think that gets to the heart of this a little bit. And it is that you say attachment is a deep form of inflexibility, yeah. And I really like that idea, because I think when we’re looking at a relationship as by talking about what we did earlier, right, sort of going up a level and looking at the thing as a whole, there are going to be places where perhaps I would like to be supported in that way there, but I’m not as much as I would. But you know, these three other areas, boy, I’m really deeply supported over there. And when we become inflexible, which is like, no, it’s got to be that way and this way. And you talk in the book about how it’s good to recognize that, like you ask your partner how they want to be cared for, is good. And I think that’s important. And we’ll talk about that. There’s also something to be said to being flexible enough in certain cases that you let your partner care for you in the way that they like, you know what I mean, like, yeah, the way they naturally show care and support. But I just love that idea. I love the idea of flexibility in general, and I love the idea of thinking of attachment as deep in flexibility.
Yung Pueblo 32:42
Yeah. This all really stems from, you know, understanding how essential this law of impermanence is to the entirety of the universe, like, literally, you know, at the atomic level, the biological level, the cosmological level, like, everything is always changing. So what that’s taught me is that I need to work with the universe and not against it. If everything is changing and flowing forward, what does that tell me? It means I need to embrace change. When change comes and I can’t do anything about it, and my actions can’t, you know, resolve things or change things in a way that I would prefer, then I have no other opportunity but to accept, yeah, and it feels like this, you know, inflexibility. You’re basically trying to move against the river of the universe, where it’s just flowing and changing and moving forward. So work with the universe, not against it.
Eric Zimmer 33:36
You may know this being a poet, in addition to the other things that you do. But I just had a conversation before this one with a mathematician, and we were talking about calculus. And he then referenced the poet Adrienne Rich, which I did not see coming out of a calculus conversation, but he talks about her poem, which the famous line in it is the moment of change, is the only poem which just made me as you were talking about sort of that dynamic nature of everything, I just think that’s such a beautiful line.
Yung Pueblo 34:06
Oh, it’s so beautiful. I haven’t heard that one. It’s literally like, when I think about what I’m learning in this lifetime, it’s just that, it’s like, I’m just learning to embrace change.
Eric Zimmer 34:14
Yeah, I don’t know what the poem is called, but the moment of change is the only poem I would go look at it, because it unfolds on a bunch of really, sort of, to me, mind blowing levels about how she just keeps going, like, one level deeper, you know, into like, this is the poem. But wait, no, that’s the poem. No, not that, you know. And it’s sort of like, when you start looking at like, I know, you think about this stuff a lot, like the nature of self, you just keep going down another level and the bottom keeps falling out, yeah, and this poem kind of does that. So it was kind of amazing.
Yung Pueblo 34:45
I just wrote down the line. I’m gonna look it up after, after we finish our chat,
Eric Zimmer 34:49
not being flexible and insisting on things being our way, that’s a problem. I also know that I’m guilty of the other side of it, which is that I go, ah. You know what? I guess that I’m not going to get that from them, and so I’m not going to say anything again. Why bring it up again? You know, I end up sort of faux accepting. Yeah, I end up sort of accepting on the outside, and yet inside, there’s still a little bit of churning going on and and I think I know for myself, how to figure that out, but how do you think about that?
Yung Pueblo 35:23
I think that’s a great point, and it’s such a like an everyday point where, you know, you may have requests of your partner, but they’re not able to meet them, and you feel that sense of, you know, a small bit of agitation that you’re not getting what you want. And I think what really helps is having your sort of own internal measuring system of like, let’s say you’ve been traveling too much and let my wife know that my parents have been going through a hard time. It’s really important to me to go visit my parents, and would be more than happy if you come with me, but you don’t have to. But you know, as long as, um, I have your support to, like, go and be with them, and just letting let you know. And that’s one example. Just, like, but you’re letting an individual know when something is really important to you and when you’re really asking for their support. Because a lot of times, like, do I really need to argue about this? Like, do I really need to fight about this? Like, is this, this important to me? Like, usually now, like, usually I can just let it go. But then there are other times where, like, something feels really critical and you have to just express it, vocalize, like, communicate about it, so that you’re on the same page.
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Eric Zimmer 36:32
I think what I figured out for myself is, if I’m in a position where I’m like, Okay, I think I need to go accept this, and I go do the work of trying to accept it, and yet I can’t. I don’t, yeah, right, like, it keeps sort of churning inside me. Okay, yeah, that’s a sign that it may not be an easy conversation. We’re gonna have to find a way to be able to talk about this, because as much as I want to just let this go, I don’t seem to be completely able to and sometimes that’s our own work to do. But there are other times where I think it’s not our work, where I think we can go, You know what, for whatever reason, for my makeup, this thing is genuinely, really kind of a big deal, yeah. And again, for me, that usually comes after I will try to accept too hard. Like, I mean, that’s my nature. Like, I’m going to go off and try and figure this out myself, because I don’t want to put my stuff on anybody else Exactly. Yeah, that’s a big value of mine. But eventually I might go, Well, you know what? Like, I’m in relationship. Like, that’s part of being relationship
Yung Pueblo 37:36
totally. And you know what’s interesting, building off of what you’re saying, it’s reminding me of something that I’ve been seeing sort of evolving in my relationship now, where there are times where there’s some agitation that lingers. There are so many situations that pop up that are not just like between the two of you, but how the two of you handle other situations that arise, that are problems that the two of you need to solve together. And you know, it could be like a family member getting sick, or, you know, something happens. And there are times where I found myself, you know, letting my wife know, like, Oh, I’m so agitated about one of these decisions that we made. I don’t have an answer, but can we talk about it more? Yeah, I don’t really know what we should do, but let’s just talk about it more, and in the process of like, both of us sharing the way that we feel, where it’s not combative, it’s just like, you know, like there’s something here. It’s quite nice, because even if the decision doesn’t change, there’s still a greater opportunity for both of us to feel seen.
Eric Zimmer 38:36
I go back to something you said earlier that I wanted to touch on, and we just kind of moved on from but I thought was very well said, which was this idea of the same problems sometimes are there, but our level of emotional turmoil over them is lessened. Yeah, we keep coming sort of back to this same thing, because it seems to be an area that we do have some some degree of an incompatibility, or some sort of thing that doesn’t line up, but it’s far less important than it used to be. So it’s not gone. And I often think about that being a version of that, of, like, the metaphor of like a spiral staircase and growth, like, if you imagine, like going up a spiral staircase and there’s a picture on the wall, like, you keep coming back around to that picture, but ideally, the next time around, you see the picture from a slightly different angle. You’re a little higher up and a little higher up,
Yung Pueblo 39:28
you’re really making me think too. Like my wife and I have this very simple, like argument that, you know, pops up every now and then, and it’s we’re so different in our character, where I’m very touch oriented, like, I need hugs from her. I need, you know, kisses, or even just like having, like my arm on her leg, or, you know, just like some sort of touch. And she’s much less so she’s very sort of, like action oriented, you know, will care for you through, through activities and through. I don’t know, moving things forward, and we joke, you know, like, I joke with her, and I’m like, Oh, I’m, I’m touch sensitive, you know, like, if you don’t touch me, I get sensitive. And it’s, it’s a common thing, but I think when the argument comes up, it just doesn’t come up with that same intensity of, you know, feeling uncared for or feeling unloved, because I’ve learned more about her. Yeah, I’ve learned that like, oh, actually, it’s not that she doesn’t care for me. It’s just that she has particular ways that her conditioning shows care. And we’re trying to meet each other in the middle. I’m trying to work on receiving the way that she likes to care for me, because it’s valuable, and like, I’m also learning from that and learning how to care in that way too. And she’s doing vice versa, like, you know, understanding the way I like to be cared for too. But it just feels like such a learning moment, and the valve of tension is released, because having spent all those years together, I just see more about her, like, I’ve had more time to understand where she’s coming from.
Eric Zimmer 41:05
That’s a great example. And I like what you said there about you’re trying to meet in the middle, right? Because in the book, you do talk about, like, it’s really helpful to a state how you like to be cared for, and it’s ideal as a partner, to try and care for the person in the way they they want to be. And as we’ve said, like, you know, you can’t always get things exactly the way you want. So you and your wife are trying to sort of meet, you know, she’s trying to say, Yes, I recognize that’s important to you. I’ll try and think to do that. But you know what, it’s not my natural way of doing things. So I may need reminded totally, you know, and you’re going, it’s okay not to be that way. I see your perspective. And it’s that meeting in the middle that I think is often so important.
Yung Pueblo 41:45
And it’s so funny how, like, the little things, where a hug to me is just as valuable as like me taking care of the compost for her, like, that is to her, it’s like, oh my gosh. Like, he’s really, like, it’s just he’s really showing up for me right now, and I’m like, Oh, I’m like, teaching myself that and trying to show up the way, like she likes that care.
Eric Zimmer 42:06
Speaking of labels, there was that book that, you know, got so much attention five love languages, where it talked about, like, you know, each person has, like, a certain love language. And totally, I found that a that’s illuminating in that we feel cared for in different ways, and a little overly simplistic. Because actually, I think, yeah, right, we all have some varying degree of many of those things, and they often shift over time. And so let’s talk about comparison, and you talk about how you know, comparing our relationship to other people’s relationships can be very problematic. And you mentioned, one of the key ways this happens today is social media. I’m curious about, you know, broadly speaking, how you feel about social media, because it’s been, I would say, largely right, like what, sort of launched your career and sustains your career. So there’s clearly some good things about it, and there’s clearly lots of difficult things about it when it comes to talking with other people about how they might engage with social media. How do you think about it? It’s
Yung Pueblo 43:16
a like and dislike relationship. I think there are so many adverse effects of social media where, you know, if you were just to not bring any analysis to it, and you were examining your own relationship, by looking, you would think, Okay, how much I love my partner is dependent on how many vacations we take together, you know. But like, it’s just full of illusion. And honestly, my recent approach is, like, obviously, I still post on Instagram, and I keep that going, and I keep trying to put up good material on there, but I’ve been leaning on the longer format, like going back to the essay format, you know, doubling down on the newsletter as like a means of deeper communication. And I find that I think it’s really interesting. Like my my guess, if I were to make a real bet about what’s going to happen with social media is, I think that there’s always going to be a place for it, but because of the advent of AI, it’s making things so fake and so untrustable. Like, you know, I’ll literally, like, I go online and I’ll see videos and whatnot, and I’m just like, I don’t even know if that’s real. Like, I don’t I don’t know if it’s real, yeah. So it’s totally losing my trust, yeah. So what does that mean? I’m hoping that this puts a new premium on human to human interaction, where we’re like, going out to hang out with friends more often, where we’re going out to see plays, or we’re going out to like book readings, you know, or where we can, I can literally see that what you’re putting forward is real. And, yeah, I think, you know, social media will have its place, because it’s important for us to be connected. Each other, but I think it’s losing everybody’s trust, particularly
Eric Zimmer 45:02
if you have some sense of what AI is capable of, you’re a little bit, like, terrified by it, you know, yeah,
Yung Pueblo 45:08
and even from, even from six months ago, yes, like, it’s so much better now. Like,
Eric Zimmer 45:12
all the cute animal videos that I would see of animals doing something incredible, and now I’m like, is that? I don’t even know if that’s real. Like, is that guy? Is that dog really on the surfboard? You know? Does that dog really love that duck? You know? Like, it’s taken all the fun out of it. For me, even
Yung Pueblo 45:27
with the news, I’ve seen things like this on Tiktok and Instagram where, like, they’ll set up situations where it literally looks like a real reporter, and it’s not real. It’s not like, it’s not real news, and it’s so hard to just know, like, what you can trust. I
Eric Zimmer 45:44
I was talking with Deepak Chopra recently, and he’s created digital Deepak, and I was like, You know what? We are six months away from, probably, with just a little bit of effort, digital Eric being able to interview digital Deepak, yeah, and it largely being impossible to tell. I don’t know what to do as a person who creates content sort of for a living. What you do with that?
Yung Pueblo 46:09
You know? And it seems initially like a clever idea, but I think what we’re going to learn from that is that what it just produces is repetition and stagnation, right? Because how creative can it really get? And you know, like you’re losing the magic of life, like you’re losing the magic of you, and I like we’re literally just wrapping together. We’re just like, we’re building, bouncing off each other, like I had no idea where this conversation was going to go. And I know that, you know, AI podcast can do something similar, but because of our imperfections, because of our conditioning, interacting in this moment, there’s some beauty to that that you can’t really replicate. And, you know, I wonder about, we were just talking about this too, with different meditation teachers in the tradition I’m a part of where, you know, some teachers are going to try to keep themselves alive forever and like, you know where they’re just like, all the teachings are encoded, and I’ve heard about this from many different traditions now, but you’re losing the magic of teacher to student. Yeah, transmission. You know, where it’s like, you’re have a student in front of you, and they’re asking you a question, and you’re almost looking past the question to see where is the real block, and AI is not going to be able to do that. It’s just going to regurgitate
Eric Zimmer 47:31
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I think it’s very interesting, because there are studies out there that have shown things that are kind of, again, for those of us, I think that are arguing on the human side, that start to become concerning, like people will rate an AI therapist as a better therapist than a human therapist, very often, until they know that it’s an AI therapist, of course, at which point they’re like, hell no, they’re creeped out, yeah, but I’m not sure that people that are 10 years younger than you are gonna feel that same way. And so, you know, I think it’s a both, uh, fascinating and interesting and terrifying time, yeah, and you can
Yung Pueblo 48:54
look at it from different perspectives, where, like, maybe because the AI therapist has this wide knowledge base, and because it’s not a real human being, you can feel that you can really just say exactly how you feel without being judged. And I can see some people, you know, putting a high value on that. But at the same time, I think the human condition requires a wide variety of tools for human beings to feel like they’re flourishing. For human beings to feel like, you know, we’re growing and evolving and overcoming our past hurts. So in one way, I’m glad, I’m glad that there’s a variety of tools that can meet people where they’re at. But at the same time, I think over the next five to 10 years, everything’s going to drastically, drastically change. And what I’m hoping for is that, you know, the same way, when, like the iPhone popped up and we all became these digital human beings, I think with AI, like AI, is going to support us in being healthier, being more connected and whatnot. But it’s good. It’s just going to. Right, push us back outside.
Eric Zimmer 50:02
That’s certainly my hope. You and I are going to continue in the post show conversation. I want to talk a little bit about the art of arguing, and we started to talk about comparison a little bit, but I really do want to talk about, how do I know, like, is my relationship good enough? Am I comparing it to something that’s unrealistic. You know the nuance that we get into there. But before we wrap up completely, if you wanted people to take away, sort of like one key idea about love, what might it be? The key
Yung Pueblo 50:33
idea that I want people to walk away with is that love is not constant excitement. It’s not perfection. It’s not going to take all your problems away. If anything, it’s going to make you see more of yourself, and that’s going to be challenging at times. But a challenge appearing doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily in an unhealthy relationship. If anything, ups and downs are absolutely natural in a relationship, and when the downs appear, there’s usually opportunities to develop deeper connection with each other. It’s a block making itself very clear so that the two of you can undo it so you can understand each other better.
Eric Zimmer 51:16
That is a beautiful place to wrap up. Diego, thank you. I always enjoy talking with
Yung Pueblo 51:20
you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Eric, this is really fun. Thank you so much
