Grounded in Gratitude: Life Lessons from Great Minds

Episode Transcript:

Eric Zimmer  02:27

Hello, everyone. I am doing the intro this week instead of Christopher, because this is a special episode of the one you feed podcast. We’ve done these in the past, and what we do is talk to some of our favorite people about one single topic, and the topic we’re going to explore in this episode is gratitude. For those of you in the States, you know it’s Thanksgiving week, at least if you’re listening to this right when it comes out. So gratitude is top of mind for many of us. But even more than that, this topic is really important, because it is one of the most impactful practices that we can use to meaningfully improve the way we experience our lives, but very often we struggle to make it a regular practice. So why is that, and what can we do about it, and why should we try or even care? I’ll explore these questions and more with our guests, Martha Beck, AJ Jacobs, dr, Nicole Lapera, Susan Cain and Corey Allen, I really hope you enjoy it. Now on to this special episode all about gratitude.

Chris Forbes  03:28

Up first on the gratitude episode from the holistic psychologist.com Dr Nicole Lapera,

Eric Zimmer  03:35

what does gratitude mean to you? I

Nicole LePera  03:37

think the most simple definition that I like to offer for gratitude is acknowledgement of what is being, I think, fully present, and I’m being very intentional about adding this step in. I think a lot of times when we think of gratitude is right, feeling grateful appreciative, or some version of appreciation for something we have, or and, or receiving the appreciation from someone or something for some aspect of us. I think what is really important, in my opinion, to incorporate into the definition of gratitude is that presence around what is not in judgment, not in criticism, around just the pure objectivity of what is present here and now. And the reason why I’m emphasizing that in particular is so many of us aren’t living in the present moment. We’re recycling past moments, past trauma that lives in our mind and body and that is coloring our experience, our interpretation of what may or may not be present, or limitations that may or may not be here, right here, right now, however, again, it’s a remnant of our past, so grounding ourself in the present moment, objectively around What is, and then allowing us to expand into that feeling of appreciation, I think, is how I operationally kind of talk about the embodiment of the practice of gratitude, which I believe is foundationally important in healing. So what

Eric Zimmer  04:53

are some of the practices for gratitude that you most recommend for people? I think

Nicole LePera  04:59

there’s a lot. Different ways we can practice that acknowledgement, just again, highlighting the first aspect of that, which is becoming conscious, even to the present moment, to what is here available. You know what the reality of it is. And that happens when we activate our conscious awareness, when we tune into not the stories in our mind, not to rehashing things that happened weeks ago, years ago, not to worrying about tomorrow. Or most of us spend our time to be grounded and present to what is to Turning our focus onto our physical body, to extending it out into the external environment, seeing for ourself things that are present here and now. That is how we become available into what is here and now and then. Of course, if we want to add in the appreciation, people have had success with journaling, listing things that we’re grateful for. For me, even just acknowledging its presence can be so incredibly healing for all of us that are coloring the present moment with our past experiences, because so many of us are filtering out the reality of what’s here based again because of those past filters that we’ve been applying. So that means becoming active, becoming present, maybe even verbally, stating for ourself or writing in the notebook, things that are present in each given moment and that can help us activate that feeling of appreciation, because appreciation can only happen if we’re aware of something that is there. Well,

Eric Zimmer  06:26

Well, that’s interesting, because normally, gratitude, the way it is done, is very often not a present moment thing. I’m grateful for the coffee I had this morning. I’m grateful for the herons I saw land on the lake this afternoon, where what you’re saying is coming present. So is it your belief that if we were to be able to come to the present moment without the heavy conditioning of the past, without everything else, that in that contact in the present moment as it is, a feeling of gratitude would naturally emerge,

Nicole LePera  06:57

I think, a feeling of connection and presence with that moment emerges the awareness of what is available. Because oftentimes, when we want to practice gratitude, typically it’s because we’re so focused on what’s not present, what we don’t yet have, what we want to be the case. Yeah, right. And when we can become present to what is here, I think we can open up our filter and see all of the different maybe needs that we do have consistently, or at least in this moment, being met, the space that we actually are, you know, choosing to inhabit in this moment, I think that we most often do have available something right that is actionable, right, some need that has safety, or we even have a house a roof over our head, right? These are small things that I think aren’t small and that we so typically overlook because we’ve become so familiar with those being part of our present existence. Yet we diminish and instead of focusing on what we have here, we tend to highlight what isn’t yet here. Yeah,

Eric Zimmer  08:03

I’ve been doing a lot of reading about the psychological research on gratitude, and it’s clear that one of its really salient features is the ability to almost counteract hedonic adaptation, right? The adaptation meaning we just take for granted what we’re used to, and gratitude being a way of actually not taking things for granted, of being a way of connecting the fact that like, well, what would it be like if this thing wasn’t here? Okay, now I can get back to appreciating what I already do have, which really does seem to be one of the keys to happy life is to appreciate what we have spend more energy there than on what we don’t have. Right

Nicole LePera  08:45

when we free up the energy of focusing on what’s not yet present, we’re actually then saving conserving the energy to create change in that direction. Should we choose so many of us expend so much energy? When we were recording the previous podcast, we were talking a little bit about autopilot, and how that actually conserves caloric energy for our brain, how we do prefer to just cruise into that familiar accepting things just as they are, without thinking about them. Because physiologically, actually, there’s a benefit of doing that, in terms of the caloric intake, with my brain already needing the most of it. So again, it allows us to be present, to see the things that we’ve become unconscious to as a way to oftentimes conserve energy. And when we have that, then energy back, not spinning around, wishing, hoping. Now we can use that energy to being grounded in the present and to actually creating the steps in that direction. So

Eric Zimmer  09:39

what do you do in your own life? Do you consciously practice gratitude in any sort of consistent way, or is it just become part of your orientation for you? How does it operationalize

Nicole LePera  09:51

so two ways, I think my most consistent practice of gratitude is staying really grounded and connected to the present moment, coming to the awareness. Of how disconnected I had spent the large majority of my life. That is a daily habit and practice, always checking into where it’s my attention, always pulling it back, always being observant of what is here, what is now. I think that’s kind of the most number one foundational aspect of gratitude that I integrate into my day to day, and then there’s a more kind of acute moment by moment. And I give myself the opportunity. For me, it’s a shift in thinking or language around so typically, when I don’t want to do something, you know, I have an event, an opportunity, something coming up, a project, right? I have to, if you will, I tend to, you know, roll my eyes. Wish I didn’t have to focus all of my internal monologuing on how much I shouldn’t maybe have to do. Right? This thing we talked about taxes when we recorded a podcast, right? I don’t want to do this thing language right now I’m shifting. The shift I offer myself is I’m grateful for the opportunity to do my taxes so I can have a thriving business. I’m grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation right, connected to what my intention is, so that the message gets out there. I’m grateful for whatever event I don’t want to do, because this might take me one step closer to this goal I have for my future. I’m grateful for the opportunity I sometimes even just use that, even, not being specific, on what it is shifting. Again, that internal monolog, because, again, so many of us don’t live in the present moment and can’t feel grateful for what’s available because we’re focusing on how much we wish it wasn’t the case right here, right now, when we can sit in radical acceptance of what is here now, when we can maybe change the way we’re filtering, giving ourselves the opportunity to possibly Springboard us into a future that’s different, wonderful.

Eric Zimmer  11:41

Well, thank you so much for taking a couple minutes to talk with us about gratitude. I am grateful that you did. I’m

Nicole LePera  11:47

grateful for the opportunity.

Chris Forbes  11:52

Up next is journalist, lecturer and author of four New York Times best sellers. AJ Jacobs,

Eric Zimmer  11:59

why don’t you just take the can story, kind of from the top.

AJ Jacobs  12:01

Sure, I know this is themed to Thanksgiving, and I wrote an article a couple of years ago about how I’m trying to make Thanksgiving a little more creative and stretch our gratitude muscles on. And one thing I noticed was that the can, you know, we have canned pumpkin pie filling. We should make it ourselves, but we don’t. And I noticed that the cans have little ridges on the side, and I looked it up, and those ridges are not there by accident. Someone came up with that idea because it makes the CANS harder to dent. So thank you to the engineer who came up with the idea to have little ridges on the side of cans, something totally never thought about, something I completely took for granted, something you never notice unless you thought about it. That

Eric Zimmer  12:50

is a great one. The numbers of those things are really endless. The things to be grateful for, and as I’ve looked into gratitude a little bit more preparing for this episode and some different things. One of the things that gratitude researchers think gratitude can be really helpful for is to forestall hedonic adaptation to some degree, right, which is basically the fact that we do take everything for granted. So your health, you could wait till it’s gone, and then you will wish you had it again, right, right? But by practicing gratitude is a way of actually, sort of not taking things for granted. And the number of things that, at least in my life, I take for granted is stunning, right?

AJ Jacobs  13:33

Yes, that is a real danger, the hedonic treadmill. And you think, Oh, I’ll be happy when I get x, you get x. 10 minutes later, you’ll be well, I’ll really be happy when I get y, you get y. And then it goes on and on. And the way I found to battle it is through gratitude and through listing, almost cataloging, all of the things that I do have. So again, it’s an active discipline, the classic writing five things down. I do it with my mom. We trade emails every morning of something that we’re grateful for. So yeah, that is, for me, the only way to battle that evil hedonic adaptation. 

Eric Zimmer  14:17

Yeah, I loved that idea that you and your mom exchange a thing every day that you’re grateful for. That’s such a lovely practice. And how much better to be able to share gratitude with someone than just do it on our own.

AJ Jacobs  14:28

And I will tell you, it’s challenging because I have a rule of myself I don’t want to repeat. So I don’t want to say I’m grateful for my dog, even though I love my dog. So I have to come up with a new one every day, and it gets harder and harder, but it’s good. It is a good exercise.

Eric Zimmer  14:43

Are you able to repeat with variation? Because one of the other things that I’ve seen, as I’ve again, I’ve looked at gratitude, is that specificity can be really helpful. So it’s one thing to say I’m grateful for my dog. It’s another thing to say I’m grateful for when my dog does that really. Thing where she buries her head in the pillow and shakes her butt around or whatever like. So are you allowed to repeat as long as you’re reflecting on a different aspect, or once you’ve thanked your wife, it’s over?

AJ Jacobs  15:11

No, what you said I love, the more specific, the better. And yes, I can be thankful for different parts. Well, not different parts, my different that sounded weird, but different, different aspects of my dog, the cuddling or the the playfulness and what you said. And I have a section in my book about writing thank you notes. And I found, at least for me, the most effective were really getting specific. I remember I wrote a thank you note to the people who are inspectors on the farms and they have to spend all their time and outdoors. And I could have just said thank you for being out there and inspecting the coffee farms, but I tried to picture what their life was like. You know, I thank you for putting up with the mosquitos that I’m sure you have to put up. Thank you for baking in the hot sun. And the more specific, I think is better for both parties, because you get a little more empathy, and then they’re like, Well, you put some thought into it. Well,

Eric Zimmer  16:13

I think that is a great place to wrap up. Thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I really did enjoy the book, you’re an outstanding writer, and thank you has been fun. Well,

AJ Jacobs  16:23

thank you, Eric. And thank you to your producer, of course, and thank you to the people who made your microphone, etc, etc.

Eric Zimmer  16:31

And riverside.fn Yeah, this could go on a long time.

Chris Forbes  16:37

Up next is author, speaker and founder of the way finder life coach training program. Martha Beck,

Eric Zimmer  16:44

hi Martha, welcome to our special gratitude episode. Thank

Martha Beck  16:48

you so much, Eric. I am grateful to be here.

Eric Zimmer  16:51

I am grateful that you agreed to be here. You know, maybe let’s just start off by getting right into it. What does What does gratitude mean to you, and why is it important to you? You know, I

Martha Beck  17:04

honestly came to it first through my brain. I was trained in social science, and I was also pretty depressed in my early life, so I read that gratitude was really good for you. It wasn’t that I was never grateful for anything, but when I began reading the positive psychology on gratitude, it had such a massive impact on people’s health, their relationships, everything like that. And I thought, I’ve got to find a way to get into this. And I tried to fake it, and it didn’t work. And I’ve coached people who’ve tried to fake it, and I will tell you this, if you’re afraid or if you’re depressed, the first thing you have to do is express love to yourself, to the part of you that is depressed or anxious, and just say it like you’ll be okay. I’m right here with you. You can feel whatever you’re feeling, and immediately those parts will flood you with gratitude for having been noticed, for having been loved. So for me, gratitude starts with self compassion, and if you’re having trouble or if you’re forcing it, it doesn’t work. But if you love the parts of you that aren’t feeling grateful, they are so grateful to be loved that it will fill you

Eric Zimmer  18:15

up. Yeah, you wrote somewhere that it’s not just the appreciation that we feel that makes gratitude good, but it’s the release of all other thoughts and feelings, right? So it’s, in essence, when we move into a grateful feeling, by the nature of the thing itself, other things have to fall away. Yeah. So it strikes me that that is one of the real problems with gratitude practice. At least for me, it does get dry sometimes, where I’m like, sort of going through the motions. Now, I still think it’s valuable for me to go through the motions, because there is at least an orientation that makes me start looking for gratitude more, right? It’s kind of like, you know, sometimes I don’t want to exercise, but I do, but at the same time, just rotely writing down three things you’re grateful for day after day after day with no feeling isn’t really going to give us what we want. And I think for a lot of people, that’s why the practice ends, because it’s doing it that way isn’t really giving us the enormous benefits that we can get from gratitude, right?

Martha Beck  19:15

And I tried it the same way you’re describing just writing it down by rote and not getting there with the genuine sensation of it. So along with loving the parts of you that aren’t grateful, the thing that works best for me, if I want to get into that state, is to move it into my sensory mind. So do something that gratifies your senses. And I will tell you my favorite thing, it’s embarrassing, but I’ll tell you, I like to get in bed king size. Bed doesn’t have to be king size, but I’m really grateful that it is, because when no one’s there, I get in my pajamas, I get in bed and I just roll and roll and roll. I just roll around. And it’s like, if your whole body is immersed in this procedure, you don’t. Stay in the tension that you’re in most of the time. So anything you love with your senses. Add it all together, put on something fuzzy, get something that’s tasty, and treat yourself well physically. And again, this simple animal body will flood you with gratitude. Yeah.

Eric Zimmer  20:14

I mean, there’s a lot of people who study gratitude and talk about gratitude. They really emphasize savoring things. We have to stay a little bit longer with the experience that’s enjoyable, go deeper into it with all of our senses as much as we can. Not only does it make it better then, but it’s actually going to make it better when we look back on it and reflect on it as a grateful moment later, it’s going into it as much as we can. That’s really powerful. Yeah,

Martha Beck  20:44

yeah. It’s interesting. Because as I was sort of getting ready to come on, I thought, you know, all my gratitude practices are very simple and very physical. And I remember being in Africa on safari and being very close to these wild animals, which I love, and being so excited and trying to grasp the experience, right? Like, instead of being grateful, I was actually anxious that it was about to end. And when I take other people, they get the same way, oh, it’s gonna end. And the way I tell people to come down from that is to start doing really, really long exhales, because that’s something a fleeing animal never does. And so it brings the brain down. It takes it out of fight or flight, which is that grasping feeling. And I just tell them, just breathe and breathe and breathe. And when I breathe consciously, it is like that experience with that animal lives inside me all the time. And it’s the same thing with a child or with a wonderful experience of any kind. Breathe into it, breathe it in, and then breathe all the way out. I think it actually does something in the brain, where it codes it in there more deeply,

Eric Zimmer  21:50

that’s really interesting. Yeah, I have really had to work with myself over the years, you know, two days into a vacation, I start counting how many days I have left and dreading it, you know. And I’ve really had to learn to be like, All right, let’s not ruin this whole vacation, yeah, by worrying that it’s going to end in those

Martha Beck  22:08

circumstances. It really is good to say, you know, what is here that I can taste, touch, hear, smell, feel with my skin, and then just really, really focus on that. So, yeah, anything that takes you to the right side of your brain, which is breathing, sensory experience, comfort, love, all of those things will allow gratitude to emerge naturally and stay longer. Yeah, another

Eric Zimmer  22:29

practice that you write about is something you were trying out for a while called the three to one gratitude practice. Can you share a little bit about that? I

Martha Beck  22:38

think I’m so grateful that you read that, because I probably wrote it during an all nighter that I’ve forgotten about. But what I what I would guess I said, is that every time I have an experience that is unpleasant and I’m thinking, why did that Cameron, I switch and think of three things that have happened that are good, sometimes connected to the same event. Sometimes they just happen unrelated to that in the same day. But it takes those three things, because we have a negativity bias in our brains that has evolved there. We actually have to push a little harder to get into the positive side of our emotions than into the negative. We slide into the negative, we sort of have to bring ourselves back to the positive. So that’s why I do three appreciation and gratitude moments for every moment that I’m being obnoxious and ungrateful. I

Eric Zimmer  23:28

think that’s a great practice. It makes me think of the researcher on couples, John Gottman, who’s done so much research, and he came up with a ratio of positive to negative, and based on his research, this is the ratio he came up with. Again, who cares if it’s three to one, five to one, four to one, right? But for every negative interaction that occurs in a relationship, you need five positive ones for that relationship to really thrive. And most people in their relationships and relationships I’ve been in before, before I was with Ginny, were almost the exact opposite, right? It was really almost five negative things to one. And it’s no wonder that those relationships were disastrous,

Martha Beck  24:08

or maybe they were disastrous already, and you had less to be grateful for. Who can tell?

Eric Zimmer  24:11

Who can tell? Yeah, absolutely. 

Martha Beck  24:15

That’s so interesting, because I’ve noticed in our family, maybe because of my son, who has Down syndrome, there is more thank you being said in our house than I ever remember in any other house that I’ve been in. Like, thank you for picking up my fork off the floor. Thank you for, oh my gosh, you were so amazing. Like, everything gets thanked out loud, yeah. And I think it got even more during the pandemic, there’s such an intense circle of thank yous in our little hideaway from the pandemic that it kind of almost created this vortex of gratitude. Yeah, and I don’t know, I actually felt strange feeling so grateful at a time when so many people were having a rough time, and then I would just be so much more grateful that that was happening.

Eric Zimmer  24:57

Yeah, that’s a rabbit hole we do not have time to go down. Why? Boy, is it an important one. Us too, here with Ginny and I, it’s just a very conscious, you know, thanking for kind of all sorts of things, just being appreciative of what the other person brings to the relationship, what the other person does around the house. When I taught at omega last weekend, it won’t be last weekend for listeners, one of the new spiritual habits we unveiled was gratitude, and I read a study that said division of labor among couples is obviously important, right? Who does what? But there also seems to be a lot of research that shows, in addition, it’s really important that you are appreciating what the other person is doing. You’re actually thanking them yes for that, and there’s a lot of other research about how gratitude in a relationship just creates this cycle that gets stronger and stronger, right? If you feel grateful and express gratitude to the other person, well now they feel better, so they’re going to act more warm to you, they’re going to do something that’s going to make you feel more grateful. And the more grateful you are, the more you want to invest in that relationship. And it’s just this cycle that gets rolling.

Martha Beck  26:04

Yeah, I wrote about this in my book about my son when he was about five. I had three kids at the time, and all of them were allowed to open one Christmas present on Christmas Eve. And my girls opened their presents, and they were like, Oh, that’s nice. It’s not quite what I wanted, but it’ll do. Then Adam opened his present, and someone had given him an automatic toy with batteries, but they wrapped the batteries separately. So what he opened was a package of batteries. And I thought, Oh no. I was like, Oh honey, that’s not the real president. He was like, ah,batteries. Oh my god. Batteries. I mean, he didn’t say, Oh my God, but he was like, oh my god, baggies, baggies, baddies. And he started running around the house going, I could make it work this, and I could make it work this, and I could bring Oh, wow. He was, like, insane with delight and gratitude for having these batteries, and that is why we give him stuff. It really showed me how much that genuine, thrilled expression of gratitude makes you just want to throw more stuff at the person.

Eric Zimmer  27:06

Yeah, it’s powerful. It really is. I think you know, so much of what limits gratitude in some of us is expectation or entitlement. Wow, yeah, we think that what we’re getting is what we deserve or what we are owed, or we know it’s coming and we should get it. And I was reflecting on this something recently, where a really good thing happened, but it was a good thing that I knew was going to happen for a while, and when it happened, I just was strangely sort of like so I had to cultivate really going back to where did this come from? What was life like before this? You know, it’s that old. It’s paraphrased much better than this. But, you know, be thankful because you’re the person that your old self wanted to be, or you have the things that your old self was wishing for. That’s

Martha Beck  27:51

really true. And I also think that we get that kind of experience when we have been building towards something that isn’t a soul level desire. So it’s society level desire. It’s what we’ve been told will make us happy. We’ll achieve something. We all have a certain financial level, or whatever, and those are really important, but when we get them, and I see this with clients all the time, there’s no sense of satisfaction. Because the only sense of satisfaction comes from the soul level, which is when you yearned for something, and then it came, and then it was like the relationships in my life. It is like rain on drought every day, all day, year after year after year, just like so much gratitude the other stuff that I’ve got because I tried really hard, and they told me that going on Oprah would make me happy. I’m very, very grateful to have done that, but afterwards, I was like, that’s not really landing. When Oprah read one of my books and really, really got it, it landed like I didn’t want the bells and whistles. What I wanted was the connection of souls. So I would tell people, give yourself a break if something doesn’t explode your mind with gratitude. But then look at what your soul has asked for and what it’s created. And look back on the things you yearn for, and even if it’s just like I was really cold and now I have a warm bed. Go back to the times when your soul was yearning, and then just revel. I call it time travel. Go back to the one who was yearning for this thing, yes, and just roll, roll, roll around a warm bed and just say, Oh, thank God I’m not still stuck on that broken ski lift or whatever it was, and that kind of time travel and the yearning of the soul, those are two things that really make my gratitude practice sort of sharper. Well,

Eric Zimmer  29:31

I think that’s a beautiful place to wrap up, because we are back to rolling around in a big bed where we started kind of So

Martha Beck  29:37

Eric, I’m going to take that recording of you saying that, and I’m going to play it for everyone, and they can just make their own conclusions. I went rolling around in a big bed where we started. Me and Eric Zimmer, there’s some gratitude coming at ya.

Eric Zimmer  29:53

Thank you, Martha. 

Martha Beck  29:54

Thank you so much. Eric. You.

Chris Forbes  30:21

Number four on our gratitude episode is speaker and author of many books such as quiet power and bittersweet. Susan Cain,

Eric Zimmer  30:30

hi Susan. It’s so nice to talk with you again. 

Susan Cain  30:33

Hey Eric, so good to be back here with you. I’ve been enjoying our correspondence in between interviews about Leonard Cohen. That’s always nice to get your emails.

Eric Zimmer  30:41

Yes, me too, and I’m so happy to talk to you again so soon after we did the first time. You know your episode was definitely one of my favorites over the last couple years. So if listeners, you haven’t heard it, I highly recommend it, as well as her book Bittersweet. But we’re here to talk about gratitude, so I guess let’s just start off when I sort of bring up the topic of gratitude. What comes to mind for you kind of right off the bat.

Susan Cain  31:03

You know? What comes to mind is my grandmother, when I was a little kid, she really loved going to the Botanical Gardens, like she had spent most of her life living in cinder block housing where there weren’t many flowers around. And she loved flowers and trees, and she would go, think it was the Brooklyn Botanical Garden. I’m not sure which one it was, but, you know, I got carted along when I was a kid, and I just remember her saying, it’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. And the time I was a little kid, and I was like, Ah, it’s just some flowers kind of boring. You know, they’re just sitting here. But I think of her all the time now, because I kind of feel the same way, like I’m just constantly exclaiming to my kids over how beautiful this thing or that thing is. I find every time you stop to exclaim over it or just silently savor it and appreciate it, it lifts you up. Yeah, and it’s also just true. It’s also just like stating a truth of like, oh my gosh, here’s a daily miracle. There’s another daily miracle. They’re all over the place.

Eric Zimmer  32:04

You mentioned the word savoring, which is definitely a key part of gratitude. As I’ve done research on gratitude, I created a new program for our omega workshop around gratitude, and it’s certainly that idea of really being able to notice what’s around you and try and savor it and appreciate it is really good for gratitude, not just in that moment, but also for our ability to look back on things and be grateful, because we’ve made them more real and present, and thus our recollection of them later is also more real and present. Yeah,

Susan Cain  32:38

yeah, I think that’s right. And one of the insights that I really came to when I was researching the whole bittersweet book is about the extent to which we as modern people who are scientifically inclined, tend to kind of like break down the things around us by understanding what their causes are, or you know that they’re composed of atoms and molecules and like that, which is wondrous and fascinating in and of itself. But the problem that we have is, I don’t think we’re aware in the way people hundreds of years ago were of just how constantly we’re surrounded by the miraculous. And I don’t mean the miraculous in a supernatural kind of way. I just mean in the like, can you freaking believe that this thing exists

Eric Zimmer  33:23

exactly? One of the guys who wrote a lot about and studied a lot about gratitude is named Robert Emmons, and he has a quote. I’m not going to get it exact, but it’s something along the lines a scene with grateful eyes requires that we see the web of interconnection in which we alternate between being givers and receivers. When I think about the miraculous, I think about that web of interconnection, how everything is connected to and caused by something else. And in a very literal sense, the entire universe had to happen in the way it happened to get me to this beautiful moment right here that is such a deep mystery and such a deep beauty. Yeah,

Susan Cain  34:04

it really is. It really is. And then at the same time, whenever I hear about or talk about the idea of gratitude, I always feel like there’s an untruthfulness to the discussion, unless we can also make space for the fact that there are aspects of existence for which we really do have no reason to be grateful, you know, just like horrors and malevolence and all kinds of things that are also part of existence and that I don’t know. I mean, maybe somebody else would say we should feel grateful for all of it. I don’t feel that way. I don’t think it’s true. I don’t think we can, or really even should feel grateful for those things. I more just think what’s really helpful is to understand that existence encompasses the beautiful miracles and then the horrors and the sufferings, and that’s how it is. Take it all in, accept it, and turn in the direction of the beauty and feel grateful for that. I find that. A much more manageable way of living than the direction I feel we’re often told to go in, which is just like, you know, only feel gratitude and don’t notice the rest of it. I

Eric Zimmer  35:10

couldn’t agree more. I mean, I think gratitude should not be a way of escaping the realities of our lives or the difficulties in our lives or the things that need to change. Like, if you’re in an abusive relationship, you don’t want to be grateful find the good things about your abuser and be grateful for them. You want to get out. Yeah, you know, a lot of things in life we can’t get out of a lot of the type of horrors that you’re describing. So I think we do need to take in the whole human condition. And it’s interesting, however, to see certain people like Elie Wiesel, I think I’m saying that correctly. Talk about how gratitude was really an important part of him surviving, you know, he was in concentration camps. And he also writes deeply about the horror and how terrible it was, right? And so he really shows both of those things. You know, these can both be true. There are things in life we can be grateful for. And there are things in life that we can be suffering through, and both those things can be accurate at the same time or true at the same time, that

Susan Cain  36:08

I think is the key thing to understand, they can both be true at the same time, and to embrace one doesn’t mean to deny the existence of the other. And I think that’s something that we can really live with because it’s telling the truth. There’s this quote from the musician Glenn Gould that I came across the other day where he talks about, I don’t have the exact words in front of me, but it’s something like the purpose of art is not for the momentary spurt of adrenaline that a beautiful artwork gives you. It’s rather that it leads you in the direction of, kind of like the slow accumulation of wonder and serenity in your life. Oh, that’s beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And it’s so true. That’s why I think turning in the direction of a beauty for which we can be grateful, or turning in the direction of gratitude itself is so sustaining, because it has a way of fortifying you in the direction of wonder and serenity. You know, it’s like, the more you do it, the more you get to turn in that direction. Yeah,

Eric Zimmer  37:05

absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, when we think about gratitude, we first have to sort of be paying attention to what’s around us, and then noticing the goodness, kind of like you’re saying, and then I think there’s an element of recognizing the gift of it. You know that this art, you know, let’s just take a beautiful piece of music, a Leonard Cohen piece of music, like I receive that as a gift. Totally it is a gift to me. And so I think that’s the key, is recognizing these benefits. And I think one of the things I love about gratitude, I think it’s both one of the biggest benefits of gratitude and one of the biggest hindrances to gratitude is our ability to take literally everything for granted. I think that blocks us feeling grateful. But conversely, if we try and look through grateful eyes, it’s a way of starting to not take the really good things in our lives quite so much for granted, our families, our health, the fact that we have drinking water. I mean, there’s just so many things that are truly amazing, that if I’m not cultivating the mindset, I just will take for granted and think, you know, I don’t have anything good,

Susan Cain  38:09

right, right? And we all have that experience of, like, you get a really bad cold or something, you feel so crappy, and then the first day that you feel better, like, oh my gosh, it’s so amazing to feel healthy. I’m going to appreciate this every minute of every day for the rest of my life. And then, you know, the appreciation starts to wean, and you start focusing on other things instead, yep,

Eric Zimmer  38:30

six minutes later, you’ve got a complaint. I mean, I know it’s so funny, I think about that when I’m in pain, when I’m in pain, the only thing I want is that pain to go away. And it is a deep desire, like, if it’s really bad, it blocks everything out. And like you said, I just think, wow, if it would just go away, I will be content. And it goes away, and I’m like, Well, I have to cultivate appreciation that it’s not there. Otherwise, our tendency towards adaptation and our tendency to notice what’s negative around us kind of overwhelms those basic things. Yeah,

Susan Cain  39:03

and you know, you keep coming back to the idea of noticing, and I do think that’s one of the most important insights. Our brains only have the ability to pay attention to so many things at once and or maybe even only one thing at a time, and we have some ability to direct our attention in the direction of our choosing. And you can choose to direct your attention towards the things that are a bummer, or you can choose to direct it towards the things for which you’re grateful. And I think this is especially true in our relationships with other people, you know, because we’re all so incredibly flawed that if we want to, we could easily find the flaws in everyone we encounter and dwell on those, or you can find the miracles in each other’s personalities, or just the things we enjoy and focus on those. And that’s a choice we can make at every moment, absolutely,

Eric Zimmer  39:58

and I don’t know who. Said this quote, I get leery anymore of attributing anything to anyone, because it’s just every time I turn around, it’s like, Nope, he never said that. She never said that. But the idea is, it’s good to look for the best in people, and often they will act that way because of it. Yeah. I mean, gratitude has been researched kind of out the wazoo, and there’s research about a virtuous cycle that starts in couples when they start to appreciate gratitude for each other, because as one person does that, you know, the other person feels appreciated, then wants to invest in the relationship, and then as you invest in the relationship, the relationship becomes something that’s more precious to have because it’s better. And the cycle kind of keeps rolling. So I think there’s so many ways that it can be a really helpful tool in our lives. And kind of, back to your point, it isn’t at the exclusion of noticing what’s difficult or hard or painful. I think of it more as sort of a day to day tool in that it’s like you said, Where’s the orientation of my mind going, and I know where mine goes when I don’t consciously redirect it. It does not go to beauty and gratitude and appreciation. That’s not where it naturally goes. And I think most people are that way, and some of us, probably more than others, it goes to what’s not here, what’s missing. I

Susan Cain  41:17

think that’s right, and I think it’s also useful for people to figure out what are the aspects of their lives that really get them to marveling at how amazing things can be. And I’ll just give you an example of what I mean. I took this via Character Strengths test some years ago. It like helps you understand what the strengths are in your own character. And I think there are, like, 24 different ones, and it just sort of ranks them. And my number one strength was one I hadn’t even considered before, and it was appreciation of beauty and excellence. I was like, oh gosh, that’s that’s really interesting, because I do, you know, like, I’ll see a perfect figure skating routine or something, or just an article that’s amazingly written, and it fills me with a sense of awe and excitement. And so I just know that might seem sort of quirky to somebody else, but I know for me, like that, beholding something excellent is incredibly elevating. So the question is, what is it for you, and you and you like we all have different aspects that elevate us, and taking the time to figure out what it is for you, I think, is one of the best gateways to gratitude that we have.

Eric Zimmer  42:23

I couldn’t agree more. I think it is, what is it for me? Because it is different for everybody, because some people, when they see excellence and beauty, it causes almost an envy, not appreciation of it. For people that have that orientation, that may not be the right direction, a similar idea that’s been on my mind lately is like I tried surfing for the first time in Europe this summer, and I loved it, and then I’ve gone to LA and done it again, and it’s a stupid hobby for an Ohioan, however,

Susan Cain  42:53

not a traveling Ohioan.

Eric Zimmer  42:54

That’s exactly right. However, it is the first thing in years that makes me fist pumpingly joyous. I don’t experience that level of pure joy anywhere else. It’s not to say that I don’t have the subtle flavors of it, but that level of it, and so I’ve just been like, you know what? I’m gonna make a choice to cultivate that, because that feels important. It feels like turning towards beauty and all and all that. There’s something about the combined experience of it all that is really special. And I think that kind of points to what you were just saying about finding your thing. Yeah, absolutely.

Susan Cain  43:32

And I totally get that, by the way, I feel that exact thing when I play tennis, which is a lot more convenient for me, because I can just go to the local tennis court. I know exactly what you’re talking about, and I would fly across the country too to feel that way.

Eric Zimmer  43:46

Yeah. Well, tennis has been on my list of things to take up, and it just hasn’t happened yet. Ginny and I, we were gonna take it up as a couple and things with balls and flying at her, just don’t go well, at least you mind, mind me sharing that our first tennis lesson together ended in tears. So it wasn’t the right couples activity. However, I’m gonna pursue it at some point.

44:08

I think it’s

Susan Cain  44:09

a good idea as a couple, maybe you should try pickleball. I just tried playing it with my son last week, and it was amazing. It elicited the same exact joy, but it’s like a wiffle ball, yeah. So Jenny, might be happy with that.

Eric Zimmer  44:22

Yeah, Pickleball is definitely on the list of things to do also. Well, Susan, end with one question here, which is, is there anything you do besides the conscious turning of beauty to practice gratitude in your life? Or Is that really your core practice?

Susan Cain  44:36

Gosh, I don’t know. I feel like it’s something I do a lot as a parent, partly because my kids, knock on wood, so far, have had really good lives, and I want them to be aware of how fortunate they are, but I think it’s just something that happens naturally. As a parent, we live on a quiet street, and we often go out onto the street to play catch, you know, and I’ll be like, Oh my gosh, we’re so lucky that we live on this. Quiet street where we can do this and don’t have to worry about cars. So I’m constantly pointing those kinds of things out to them, and hopefully they don’t find it annoying. They don’t seem to I do think there’s something about being a parent that can orient us in that direction of noticing these things.

Eric Zimmer  45:15

I love that. I think that’s a really great practice, like if we are orienting our children in that direction, and at the same time choosing to orient ourselves in that direction Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It is always such a pleasure to talk with you, and I appreciate you coming on and talking about gratitude today. You

Susan Cain  45:33

are so welcome. Love talking to you and yeah, thank you for reaching out on this. You

Chris Forbes  46:14

and closing out this episode is author, meditation teacher and podcast host at the astral hustle. Corey Allen,

Eric Zimmer  46:22

hey, Corey, it’s good to talk to you again.

Cory Allen  46:24

Good to talk to you again. As always,

Eric Zimmer  46:26

this has been a bounty of riches. As far as talking to you, I feel like I’ve done it more over the last several months, and it took us several years to get in. So this has been great, glad to be connected again. Man, yeah. So we are talking about gratitude. And I guess I’ll just start off broadly and ask you, you know, when I bring up the topic of gratitude, what what comes to mind for you? Couple different

Cory Allen  46:49

things, I think. The first thing is, I think about the general things that people associate with gratitude, what is in my life that makes me feel anchored and safe and fulfilled. Those things are relationships my career, the things I’m able to do and share with people, and just the general systems that I have in my life that are really meaningful to me. And then, of course, there’s just the abundance of modern living that I’m really grateful for. As far as you know, I live in Austin, Texas, and so it’s so easy to get numb to like, the ways that we live, of like what’s available to us, as far as you know, things like clean drinking water, even stuff like that, where it’s like, sometimes I just stop and remember that as easy it is to forget that. That’s a real luxury. It’s just so plentiful where we are, yeah, kind of blows my mind. You know something by the wow, you know. But you know all that stuff, people are pretty used to, and they’re familiar with those ideas around gratitude. But to go a little bit deeper, I’ll say this, and I’m curious how you think about this. How do people apply gratitude, right? Like, how do people take the idea, whether it be sort of along the lines of what I just described, or if it’s kind of this memification idea of gratitude, and how do you actually apply that to life, to where it has real consistent and daily resonance, because most people think about gratitude. I ascertain from observing the internet is people look at gratitude with the way it’s talked about as some type of solution. So it’s like, oh, I’m feeling down today. Well, remember all of the good things in your life, you know? Or I’m like, in this crazy challenge right now, and things feel really difficult. It’s like, okay, but now tap back into gratitude and remember all the things you have going for you, everything that you’ve got them to this point. And so what’s trying to happen there is that they’re using gratitude in a time where they’re struggling to apply it to the challenge the negative emotions to offset the feeling of negativity, to try and bring themselves back into balance. Right now, there’s nothing wrong with that, certainly, but are we short changing the deeper level of our gratitude by using it in that way? So if we only look at gratitude as an active way to minimize negativity. Are we missing the deeper gratitude available to us in daily lives that exists on its own terms, not in relativity to challenges or negativity, but for its own sake? So that’s something I think about, and I have various ways of working with that, but I’m curious what you think about that, and how you might approach that same idea,

Eric Zimmer  49:42

I first have to ask, are you grateful for your voice? Because, as a podcaster, usually in every conversation, like I’m doing all right over here, but every time I get on with you, I’m like, That guy has got a great podcasty voice. I hope you’re grateful for it. I

Cory Allen  49:56

am. Thank you. And I will say, is that with great power? Great responsibility, so I try and use it wisely. But also it is kind of funny is that it’s like, I suppose if someone is like, seven feet tall, every person that they meet is like, Wow, you’re really tall. And they’re like, I know that. Thank you for and it’s kind of a funny thing is that every conversation I have on the phone, on, you know, on podcasts, random conversations, it’s generally the first thing that comes up. So it is kind of one of those funny things where, while I’m grateful for it’s also like, kind of always being brought to me, which is funny on its own. Yeah,

Eric Zimmer  50:32

actually, what you just ended there with, I think, is interesting, because, you know, when I think about gratitude, I’ve been thinking a lot about hedonic adaptation and the idea that gratitude is both the greatest antidote for that, but that hedonic adaptation is also the greatest block to gratitude, you know. So one way of looking at that is if we look at it through the paradigm you just said, which is, I use gratitude to counteract certain negative things, right? We could use gratitude as a way of counteracting the fact that we just get used to all the good stuff in our lives. We just do. Our ability to adapt is a good and bad thing, right? When terrible things happen to us, our ability to adapt to them is a good thing. However, it also means we take literally everything for granted. But it’s also interesting to think about, if I were to work with hedonic adaptation more skillfully, might that unlock gratitude for its own sake, to just have the depth of gratitude as an orientation to life versus a tool that I bring in exactly? Yeah, and

Cory Allen  51:38

should we define the hedonic treadmill real quick. Or have you talked about that on your podcast before?

Eric Zimmer  51:44

I’m sure we’ve talked about it, and I’m sure not everybody hears it all the time. Why don’t you define it real quick?

Cory Allen  51:49

Oh sure, yeah. So basically, think about hedonic that’s pleasure. And so as we continue to evolve and our lives get better, we very quickly get used to the luxuries and the good aspects of our lives, and it makes it harder for us to see them in the big picture of everything that’s going on. So the adaptation or the treadmill analogy, both are, you’re just always sort of running towards more pleasure and missing what you have. Because it’s in our nature to once we acquire something, just normalize it to a new baseline. Yep,

Eric Zimmer  52:18

exactly. The adaptation as a principle. As us, as humans, adapt to whatever we’re given. If we’re given bad things, we have a remarkable ability to adapt to them. That’s the positive side of it. And then the hedonic adaptation is the negative side of it, which is we take everything for granted. You know, you and I were talking beforehand about how fortunate we both are to do the kind of work that we do, yet if I don’t actually sometimes make an effort to remember that. You know, this thing that I dreamt of for so long, and I thought, if I just get that, I’ll be happy, no longer makes me happy. Now, gratitude is actually a tool, I think so this is back to, is gratitude a tool? Is it a state of mind? I think it’s all of those things. But for me, it’s a tool of kind of getting back to appreciating the things that I actually do have. If you’re not using it as a tool, how do you think about it, or what do you find to be a more useful orientation? Yeah, and also, I

Cory Allen  53:14

don’t think it’s really for me anyway, it’s not a black and white. There’s definitely great where I do use it as a tool sometimes, but as far as trying to look at a deeper relationship with it, I really apply it through the abundance of presence. So just being aware of being aware and really melting into the present moment with everything that you’re experiencing, and getting to that root level of Oh, right. I am a aware agent of consciousness flowing through time in the middle of outer space, and I know that I’m a wave of consciousness in a neat space suit. This is unreal, right? This is so crazy and fun, and it’s a good way for me. I just remember that and think about that every day. I suppose it quarter just crops up once or twice a day. I don’t really have to work at it too much, but I think about it, and it just really grounds me, and it does pull me back to that original mind place that you were talking about, of like, whoa. Like, think about everything that, like, I’ve experienced in life, you know, good and bad, the circumstances and like, the infinite self organizing possibility of all that could be. And this is the meat taxi that my brain is in mind is taking a ride. And, you know, like, This is crazy. And then, of course, as I said, it always gets meta, where I think the fact that I can think about this, and I’m aware that I’m thinking about this, is unreal, and to me, that like kind of zooming out and zooming in simultaneously, it’s a way to get the big picture and the granular picture at the same time. And then that’s whenever you know you can get into that state of the class. Classic thing of washing the dishes and feeling, you know, that’s an incredible experience, because you’re actually there for it. You’re not somewhere else. You’re actually really tuned into just how brilliant it is to even be aware of the fact that you’re aware. Yeah,

Eric Zimmer  55:13

there’s three aspects of gratitude I’ve been thinking about for gratitude, I think, to find its full expression, all three of these things have to be happening. And one is we have to be paying close attention. Yes, doesn’t really work if we’re not. And then the next is to notice the goodness that is there, right? You know, from your perspective here, the goodness is just the wonder of what is this, what is this? And then the last is sort of recognizing it as a gift, right? Recognizing, like I am not the creator of any of this, like I couldn’t have made all this happen on my own. So again, who the giver is? We don’t need to get lost on that if you want to. But to me, that’s not what’s important. What’s important is I wasn’t the source of it. Kind of what you were just describing, you sort of summarized all three of those things, right? This deep attention to the present moment, this recognizing that indeed it is good just to be, and that the fact that I am is a gift of sorts, in that I didn’t create it. I can barely create a podcast, let alone, you know, this multiverse we live in. Well,

Cory Allen  56:21

I mean, don’t shortchange yourself, Eric, I think that you are the creator of all things and the universe. I think you are an omnipotent being. I don’t know. Like, another important part of it is not getting real heavy handed with it, you know, yeah, because it’s easy for a person to get in there and be kind of feeling like they need to play the role of what we’re talking about, to, like, feel what we’re talking about, but it’s a lot more light than that, because I feel like whenever this type of conversation crops up, there’s a potential for a listener to try and put on that outfit a little bit and wear it in their own lives. And the reason it works is because it’s light. It’s not a like, I’m gonna sit down and, like, really curl my brow and like, get deep into this, you know, emotional thing. It’s like, no, no. Just like, lighten up, let go, just feel that you’re here and like, notice how amazing it is, and then you’re good, yep.

Eric Zimmer  57:12

And is that enough for you? Or do you find that it actually helps to, in some way, consciously cultivate gratitude? Or do you find it comes simply by being present? To me, it comes

Cory Allen  57:24

by being present, but also my mind is very curious and extrapolating at the same time, and so I’m always peeling back and thinking about those things and expanding. I will say that I think a real benefit to practicing gratitude, for gratitude sake, and just getting into that baseline energy of, like, all right, like, whatever. There’s always ups and downs. Things suck, then they’re awesome, then they suck again, then they’re awesome. That’s just the way that life goes. And you can mitigate some unnecessary suffering by being active. But okay, there it is. It’s cool that we’re here. This is fun. This is beautiful. And let’s just feel it for a minute. To me, I’ve noticed, because I’ve kind of experimented and tried to do this out of curiosity, is that that baseline of gratitude builds a really useful Foundation, because then whenever you do hit a low point and you’re feeling the weight of the negative side of the spectrum, it can make it a lot more difficult for you to have all that weight that’s pushing on you, make any cracks. I’ve tried to reach my bottom and, like, have the bottom fall through for fun, really, and curiosity, where it’s like, if I’ve gotten into a negative mind state, that is, fortunately, it’s, it’s pretty rare. But if I do start feeling like I’m sliding into that area, feeling like, just hopeless or something like that, I’ll like, flirt with it where I’m like, I’m curious if I could get to the other side of that. Like, what does it feel like to just give up and I can’t get there? Like, I’ve really tried just to see what it’s like as I was in that area being like, come on. Like, let’s let go. And like, really give up, just to feel it. And maybe a part of it being able to spelunk into the like, dark side is like, that is because I know that I’ll come back because I’m just, I always cheer up real easily. You know, I wouldn’t recommend this for someone who’s dealing with depression or anything.

Eric Zimmer  59:21

I was gonna say, we’re gonna put a disclaimer at the top of this show. At this point,

Cory Allen  59:26

good. I hope that all of our shows have disclaimers going forward. But it’s like, I as I was like, doing that, it’s like, oh yeah, I can’t get through there, because there’s that, that layer of foundational awe of being that’s what the ground floor is, and so all the weight doesn’t end up cracking through that, because that is the root of everything. So all the stuff above it can’t get through

Eric Zimmer  59:53

it. Well, any last words on gratitude? I

Cory Allen  59:56

don’t think so. I’m grateful for you. Thank you for everything. You’re doing in the world and the person that you’re being and sharing out there, and thank you for thinking of me for this conversation, and thank you for everyone for listening through the weirdness and making it to the end.

Eric Zimmer  1:00:11

All right, thanks. Corey, thank you. You

Chris Forbes  1:00:29

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