In this episode, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford explains how connection helps us heal what we can’t heal alone, from the power of sharing our stories to the support we find in friendships, groups, and community. She discusses how healing allows painful experiences to become part of our story without becoming our entire story, why shame begins to loosen when we realize we aren’t alone, and how relationships can help us see ourselves more clearly. Dr. Joy also explores self-silencing, navigating conflict, finding meaningful friendships as adults, and why discomfort can sometimes be a sign that we’re growing in the right direction.
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Key Takeaways:
- How culturally responsive therapy recognizes the different experiences people bring to mental health and healing
- Why finding the right therapist is about connection as much as credentials
- How to balance self-improvement with accepting yourself as you are
- Why sharing our stories can loosen shame and help painful experiences become part of our story rather than the whole story
- The unique healing power of groups, friendship, and realizing we aren’t alone in what we’re experiencing
- How to build new friendships as an adult by noticing people already in the “background” of your life
- Why self-silencing our needs can undermine our relationships and how small changes can help us speak up
- How navigating conflict can deepen intimacy rather than signal the end of a relationship
- Why discomfort doesn’t necessarily mean you’re moving in the wrong direction
- Practical ways to work with everyday anxiety, including asking “and what next?”
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford is a Licensed Psychologist and the author of Sisterhood Heals: The Transformative Power of Healing Community. Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant and accessible for Black women and she delights in using pop culture to illustrate psychological concepts. Named by Glamour Magazine as a Game Changer for her work in the mental health field and
Connect with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Website | Instagram
If you enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, check out these other episodes:
Exploring the Healing Potential of Spirituality with Abraham Verghese
Racialized Trauma with Resmaa Menakem
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Episode Transcript:
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:00:00 Just because you’re uncomfortable doesn’t mean that you’re headed in the wrong direction. It just means that there are some changes. Growing pains are part of most experiences that change in our lives.
Chris Forbes 00:00:17 Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts. We have quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Eric Zimmer 00:01:02 When I got sober, the thing I didn’t expect was how much we laughed. People in recovery will laugh about the worst things. I’d be feeling ashamed about something.
Eric Zimmer 00:01:12 Then I’d hear someone laugh at the same thing and it started to lose its grip on me. Doctor Joy Harden Bradford has a name for this. She says humor is a sign that healing is underway because you can only laugh at something once you have some distance from it. Joy is a psychologist and the host of therapy for Black Girls, and her book, Sisterhood Heals, is about what happens when we stop carrying things alone. I’m Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, doctor Joy, welcome to the show.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:01:44 Thank you so much for having me, Eric. It’s a pleasure to connect.
Eric Zimmer 00:01:47 It’s great to talk with you. You have a wonderful podcast that I’m sure will come up. And you also have written a book which is called Sisterhood Heals the Transformative Power of Healing in Community. And we’ll get into all that in a moment. But before we do. Let’s start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there’s a grandparent who’s talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:10 What is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love? And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. I think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:02:34 Yeah, that’s an important parable, Eric. I appreciate you sharing that. You know, I think it really boils down to like, whatever we give our attention and energy to is the thing that grows inside of us and in our lives. And I think as it relates to even the work that I do, like, so much of it, is focused on making mental health more relevant and accessible for black women and girls. And I think the way that the community has grown and the attention it has gotten in the lives that it has changed, really speaks to the parable that you shared.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:05 You know, as I’ve listened to your podcast, as I read your book, I’m interested in the great amount of similarity there is. And then also the difference it is there. Right. The similarity is we’re all human. We all face a similar set of mental challenges, and we all have, you know, different degrees of emotional thought patterns, all these things that are similar. And as your podcast makes clear, there’s a difference, right? Me being a white man, you being a black woman. There are some differences too. And I’m curious how you think about the commonalities between people and mental conditions and just overall emotional wellness, and how you also think about the differences, and when is it useful for you to make a difference, and when is it useful for you to focus on similarities?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:03:55 So you know, we all are governed by our emotions and have mental health that we need to tend to. And so I think that is a commonality, right. Like we all experience different things.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:04:05 I think the difference is in why it’s important to focus on that. Is that the way that we experience our emotions is largely governed by who we are in this world, right? So there are definitely things that I’ve learned. Ways that I’ve been socialized at are very different than likely the ways that you have been socialized, right? I think the history of racism in this country plays a large part in the internal feelings and experiences of black people, and so there’s a lot that we feel that is dictated by things that have nothing to do with us. And so I think, you know, the commonality is that we all have feelings, but there definitely are outside forces that impact the way that we experience our feelings. That way we talk about our feelings the way that we even give ourselves permission to experience our feelings. I think is also governed by some of those things.
Eric Zimmer 00:04:55 So something I’m going to be doing a little more often is asking you, the listener, to reflect on what you’re hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration.
Eric Zimmer 00:05:07 So before we move on, I’d like to ask you what’s coming up for you as you listen to this? Are there any things you’re currently doing that are feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you’re not currently doing. So if you have the headspace for it, I’d love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what’s one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is, a really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt, or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I’ve been sending little good wolf reminders to some of my friends and community members. Just quick little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free and people seem to really love them.
Eric Zimmer 00:06:02 Just drop your information at one eufy and I can send them to you. It’s totally free and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That’s one you feed. Net. And now back to the episode. And is this sort of what you mean by culturally competent therapy? Yes. Say more about that.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:06:25 Yeah. So culturally competent therapy really refers to a therapist having an understanding of some of these outside factors that may influence how we experience our feelings and emotions, and also understanding the stigma related to mental health concerns for communities of color. Right. So we know that there is a large stigma, like it has not always been okay for communities of color to even talk about, like not feeling well. Right? Like this idea that you should be strong all the time. And if you have to ask for help, it’s a weakness. Like that is something that many communities of color are kind of socialized to believe by parents and grandparents. And so having therapists who understand what you may be bringing into therapy and have a sensitivity to walking you through some of those things, I think is really important for a therapist.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:07:13 There are also some things that people experience that you want your therapist to just understand, right. So one of the common examples that comes up is, you know, black women will often change their hair a lot, right? So maybe one week I come to session, I have braids, the next week get straight. And so spending a lot of time in your therapy session talking about like, oh, I noticed that your hair is different may feel a little off putting if you don’t understand that. That is just kind of something that happens. Another example is, you know, black people and other people of color often have experiences in retail, shopping kinds of places where they are followed or have experiences with law enforcement, and you do not want to go to a therapist who questions the validity of those things, right? So it should not be like, oh, are you sure that really happened? Or or was that person really, you know, like, because we know enough to know that you should believe somebody’s experiences when they’re telling you something has happened, right?
Eric Zimmer 00:08:10 Say that slightly differently.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:12 If I were to go to my therapist and talk about being followed, it might be worth saying, hey, let’s question that, because, you know, you might be reading something into a situation, whereas it’s more likely, given our cultural world, that you would have been followed. And it’s better to assume in your case, like, let’s not dive into whether this person is having delusions. Let’s actually believe them, because the cultural context makes sense here in a way that it wouldn’t for me. Right, right. Yeah. I think about these things because as I was reading your book, you know, your book is written to other black women sisters. Right. Of which I am not I am not a sister. And yet so much of it I relate with. Again, some things I don’t, and so I just always find it interesting where the things are similar and where they’re different. It’s sort of the question on different level though, which is if you’re a female, should you have a female therapist? If you’re a male, should you have a male therapist? And I think there are different opinions on that, but I do think it speaks to that.
Eric Zimmer 00:09:15 The other thing is you were talking, I was curious about you were talking about how in communities of color, it’s this stigma against mental health and against not being strong all the time. And I was thinking a little bit like, well, that certainly was the case in all culture maybe 100 years ago. Do you think that it’s just the stigma has lifted more quickly out of white culture than it has out of black culture?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:09:44 Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, you know, more white people have had the experiences of parents and grandparents being in the mental health system in ways that have been helpful to them. Right. Like, I think for black people in other communities of color, the mental health system has largely been punitive historically. Right. And so, you know, I think white people are just more familiar. There’s more language, typically more resources for you to kind of tend to your mental health, whereas that’s not necessarily the case in other communities. Right.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:11 But it seems like that that is starting to change a little bit with work by people like yourself.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:16 And there’s a number of prominent people in that space that are starting to really spread that message, which is wonderful. Finding a therapist is traditionally a challenging thing, really for anybody because, you know, it’s just not a well-organized marketplace. And yet I assume it’s even more so, obviously, if you’re trying to find somebody who’s culturally appropriate for your type of therapy. What sort of things have you done to make that easier for people of color?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:10:46 Yeah. Eric, you know, you bring up a really good point, and I just want to stop and talk about the difficulty in finding a therapist, because I think the process is a little different than like, just if you’re looking for a primary care physician or like a dentist, right? Like typically you will maybe like if you’re using insurance benefits, you’ll go to like whatever the directory or resource is. You may find the person that’s closest to you. Maybe you look up some reviews, or maybe you get a referral from friends. Like it tends to be a little bit more straightforward.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:11:14 Whereas therapy, we know that the relationship that you have with your therapist is actually the thing that makes all the difference. And so, of course, you know, you want a dentist probably that has good bedside manner, right? And that is pleasant. But if they are a great dentist and they’re not like so great bedside manner, you might let it slide because you only see them, what, once or twice a year. Maybe if everything is good versus your therapist, who you are likely meeting with on a much more regular basis in a lot of cases once a week. And so it really is important for you to find a therapist who you really connect with, somebody who you really feel like gets you. So that is a part of what makes it so much more difficult to find a therapist, is that you’re looking for so many other factors that are beyond the things you’re typically looking for in a different kind of health care professional.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:01 Yeah, that can be daunting, right? Yes. I’ve been in therapy on and off. It started when I was even teenage years, because I was in all kinds of trouble all the time. And so I know how critical that relationship is. So the thought of like, okay, I’m going to do that again. There’s nobody obvious for me to go to or I don’t have any good recommendations. So now I’m just kind of rolling the dice, as it were. It is daunting and it makes it easy, I think, to often just be like, oh, that’s too hard and not do anything.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:12:30 Yeah. And I think you have to think about the fact that typically when people are reaching out to a therapist, it’s not when things are going well in your life. Right? Right. So that definitely could be the case. But most often, like people are in pain or they are experiencing some kind of distress. And so you already have a much smaller bandwidth to be able to do these kinds of things. And so finding a therapist and kind of wading through all these profiles and, you know, asking questions and doing the consultations, it can feel very, very daunting, which is why I often talk about, you know, one of the ways that it is great to help somebody in your life who you know is struggling with something and maybe needing a therapist is for you to be able to help them to narrow that search down.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:13:09 So you kind of taking on the task of doing some of that legwork and checking insurance and stuff, and maybe sending them a list of like three therapists who you’ve identified can be a great way to kind of really help somebody who’s struggling.
Eric Zimmer 00:13:21 That’s a great idea. What other tips do you have for people in finding a good therapist? Say maybe broadly and then narrowing down to people of color.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:13:32 And you know you made a great point Eric, that for some people it is important to find like if you’re a man and you want to work with another male therapist, or if you’re a black woman and you want a black woman therapist, like it is perfectly okay for you to go after the thing that you want. But I tell people to be open to the idea that you may find an incredible therapist who comes in a package that looks nothing like what you thought that you wanted. Some strategies for finding a good therapist. So one I think referrals can be a great way. So if you have other people in your circle who work with therapists, you may want to ask, you know, hey, would you mind giving me their information if you have other health care professionals that you work with as a part of your care team, asking them for referrals of other people that, like maybe previous clients have worked with can also be a great way.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:14:19 But a lot of therapists are also very active on like social media. Many of us have websites and like directory profiles where you can learn more about us. Lots of people have like videos and different kinds of things, so you can get a little feel for what it might be like to talk with someone and like whether you think you might like them. But I do encourage people to make sure that the therapist has training in the area that you’re wanting assistance with, because you may love somebody’s personality and think it would be really great to talk with them, but if they don’t actually have the training to be able to help you with whatever you’re coming into therapy for, it may not be successful even though you really like them.
Eric Zimmer 00:14:55 When it comes to culturally competent therapy. Is it possible that, let’s say, pretend I, as a white man, could I be culturally competent to work with people of color? Or is it really more people of color that are going to be culturally competent?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:15:12 Yeah, Eric, it is honestly very, very important for people like you to be culturally competent. And we also use the term culturally responsive, because competent means it kind of has the illusion that, like, you could check a box and like you’re competent. Got it. Versus culturally responsive, meaning like you’re doing the work to kind of make sure that you can create spaces where people of all different backgrounds can come and feel safe in your therapeutic environment. And so even if every black person wanted a black therapist, like there are not enough of us to go around. which means that our colleagues who are not black need to be making sure that they are doing the work in terms of discovering unconscious biases and doing the trainings and having conversations, reading books, listening to podcasts, like to do the work so that somebody could come to you and feel like they have a really good experience with you therapeutically.
Eric Zimmer 00:16:03 Makes sense. Thank you. So one of the things I spend a lot of time thinking about is the balance between self-improvement and self-acceptance. This just seems to be a fundamental sort of tension that exists in this space. On one hand, we might want to improve oftentimes, as you said, because we’re in pain or because we’re struggling or our relationship isn’t going well or something in our life isn’t working the way we want it to. And yet we also know that we can get stuck in that place of always thinking things need to be better than they are. And so how do you think about that balance, both in your own life and with your clients?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:16:46 Yeah, I think that that is a really important thing to highlight. And I do feel like, Eric, the proliferation of social media has made that tension much more pronounced, because I think you can follow all kinds of accounts and all kinds of people who are constantly talking about like, oh, if you have these symptoms, like, this may be the thing going on with you, which I think only adds to this idea that, like, there’s something inherently wrong with us all the time, right? And so I think it’s important not to view ourselves as like this ongoing, like self-improvement DIY project, because I think it can get really easy to fall into that trap of always having a thing that we want to fix in ourselves, as opposed to, yes, there may be some things that I need to work on, but I am also worthy to be loved and perfectly fine just as I am.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:17:36 And so I think that that is a tension that many people struggle with, even in my own life, like you mentioned. Like, I definitely think the book writing process illuminated some things for me that I did not recognize about myself. Like, I feel like I have far more control issues, way more perfectionistic than I ever imagined. And so, you know, there were many sessions spent talking with my own therapist about like how to balance, like, okay, is it good enough to kind of put out into the world? And so I think that that is something as humans, especially in the advent of social media, we have to be very mindful of to strike the right balance.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:30 I think it mirrors a natural tension in humans between sort of the grass is always greener mindset, right? Like if I just had this, if I just had that. But given the focus that our culture has on emotional and mental health, which is broadly a good thing, that perpetual tension has made its way into that world too.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:52 And I agree with you that social media kind of has a lot to do with it, and trying to find the right balance. It’s interesting. I was having a conversation with I don’t remember who it was, I don’t know, the last couple of weeks we were talking about perfectionism and this person was saying, I never thought of myself as a perfectionist, right? Like, I will make mistakes, I’ll leave a typo in my place, isn’t necessarily perfectly clean, etc., etc. but what she identified in herself was that she realized that there was a certain amount of emotional perfection she was expecting. She was expecting to always be happy for things, to always be going well. And when they weren’t, she was suffering as a result of that. And I just had never heard perfectionism turned in that direction. I immediately went like, oh yeah, that makes sense to me.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:19:41 Yeah, I don’t know that I’d heard it talked about in that way either, but it does make perfect sense, right? Like anything in our life that we feel like we are striving for, or we feel like there is a good way versus a bad way to do, I think can elicit these feelings of perfectionism.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:19:56 So that makes sense. Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:19:58 You have a definition of healing, which is you say, I define healing is the process of revising and rewriting the difficult things that have happened to us so that they become part of our story, but not the entirety of our story. I love that definition. Say more about healing through that lens.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:20:17 You know, so I think when something difficult happens naturally it becomes like the center of our lives. So if there is a loss we experience some kind of traumatic event. Like we are kind of singularly focused in that place for quite some time. And I think it takes some time before you can recognize and get to a place where it is yet still a part of your story, but it is not the singular focus of your story. And I think that that is what a support system helps you to do. That is what therapy helps you to do. That is what all of the other coping strategies that we engage help you to do is to allow that thing or that experience to become a part of your story, without it becoming the singular focus.
Eric Zimmer 00:20:56 Yeah. You go on to say you believe that healing and you say, especially as it relates to the experience of black women, I’m going to generalize it from there is operating from a place of joy rather than from the pain we may have experienced. And when I read that sentence, it made me think of I’m a recovering heroin addict and alcoholic, and it made me think of 12 step programs and how much we would laugh at the things that we had done. It was almost in that moment that you could start to see an alchemy occurring. The minute that you heard somebody else cracking up about something you were feeling deeply ashamed about, there was something that just started to shift. And so I loved calling out. humor is a good indicator for me that the healing journey is underway.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:21:42 Yeah. Because I think that that indicates that there’s some distance. Right. Like it’s really hard to laugh about something that you’re actively still going through and trying to like fight your way out of versus the humor I think, allows you to kind of almost look at it as if it didn’t necessarily happen to you.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:21:56 Like you’re able to have some perspective on it that I think you’re just too close to when it kind of first happens.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:02 Yeah. So what do you think are some of the key things that we can do to help us revise and rewrite that story? You talked about some of the containers. We might do it in therapy or group therapy or with friends, but what are some of the tools within those containers that we use to sort of take control of that narrative again?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:22:28 So the first one you’ve actually already shared is actually sharing your story. Right. So you talked about like the shame that we often feel when things happen. And I think that that is probably the largest barrier to us beginning the healing process is to actually let go of the shame we’re experiencing around whatever this thing is that has happened to us. And I think that that is also the thing that gets in the way of connecting, is that we feel like we are the only person who has ever felt whatever XYZ is, right? And I think in groups are in friendship circles.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:23:00 We are able to realize like, oh my gosh, like you felt that too. Like I really identify with that. And so I think the first strategy is really to be able to share our story and let people know this thing that has happened to us or this experience that we’re holding on to so that we don’t feel ashamed about it anymore. I also think when you are ready, being able to use the things that have happened in your life to help other people is also a great way to continue that healing journey. So whether that be facilitating groups of your own, or doing speaking engagements, or writing a book or sharing on a podcast about something that has happened to you also unlocks something for other people. And I think that that is another great strategy for allowing you to continue working through the healing process.
Eric Zimmer 00:23:47 Yeah, I would say in addition to humor, that was the sort of second thing that I would think about in The Alchemy of Healing within addiction recovery is as soon as you were able to start helping somebody else with it, it all of a sudden changed, right? It went from being this thing that was this bad thing.
Eric Zimmer 00:24:07 And I’m not saying it happens immediately. And suddenly you’re like.
Speaker 4 00:24:09 Ooh, heroin addict.
Eric Zimmer 00:24:10 Wonderful, right? That’s not what I’m saying. But all of a sudden you start going, wait a second. This experience can be of benefit to others, and I think it’s why 12 step programs focus so much on that element is because that turning the attention to being able to help somebody else, not in general. I mean, helping people in general is good. But with the particular struggle you’ve had is what again I think is part of the alchemy there.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:24:37 Yeah. I mean and that’s a lot of what I talk about in the book is you know group therapy which 12 step is not necessarily a traditional therapy group, but it is kind of governed by this idea that like we are holding this body accountable and we are accountable to one another. And I do think that that is really important to be able to use your experiences to help other people so that you can unlock some of that shame for them.
Eric Zimmer 00:24:58 Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:24:58 Yeah, I would agree. I’ve been in group therapy and then I’ve been part of groups, you know, 12 step being one, but other kinds. And I am a big believer in the power of groups. I would say I’ve gotten probably more out of group work than I have out of individual work. Not that anybody necessarily has to choose. I didn’t, and I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about that. And have you explained to us a little bit why you believe so much in group work and why it’s so foundational to what you do?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:25:28 You know, Eric, you really just touched on it like, you know, I have done both individual and group therapy as the therapist, and there are insights and breakthroughs that people get through within, like the first month of group, that it would take six months to a year to get to in individual therapy. And I think that, again, there is something about the power of sharing your story in front of a group of people and being able to, like, allow them to hold that for you and feel affirmed and validated in your experiences.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:25:57 That is just magnified because it’s not just one person. There’s a group of people there to experience it. I think also the shame is addressed quicker because somebody will share something. And I think the other thing is that in individual therapy, you have to do a lot of talking to really get any kind of benefit out of it versus group. You can get a lot of benefit even from just being like a bystander and like listening to other people’s stories, because you realize, again, that you are not the only one experiencing something like this, right? So even though the grief I experience may be related to the loss of a loved one. Your grief may be related to the loss of a promotion or some other experience. We can still connect over what the grief feels like. And so I think that there are just other data points that happen in group that you just inherently can’t get in individual therapy. I also think it’s really, really good to be able to hear feedback from other people, right? Individual therapy.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:26:52 There’s only the one therapist to give you any feedback versus in a group, you can get feedback from lots of different people and get in real time feedback about like how you are showing up. And I think that that is one of the things that makes groups so powerful is that you can get that real time feedback from people that you may not have even known. You find out things about yourself that I think are really, really critical to how you show up in the world in ways that you can’t get in other spaces.
Eric Zimmer 00:27:17 I love what you said there about not having to do any talking, to be able to get healing. That really resonates. I hadn’t thought of it quite in those terms, but that makes a lot of sense because you can just sit and absorb. What do you think are some of the challenges or the things that get in people’s way of getting the most out of group experiences? What are some of the common things that you see that people are bringing with them, or they’re experiencing as part of that might limit the effectiveness?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:27:51 You know, I think it’s hard to to outline anything because that is also what makes group effective.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:27:57 Right. So my first thought was, you know, groups typically mimic our family system, right. And so if you come from a family where there was a favorite child or like you were the black sheep of the family, likely that is going to be recreated in the group system, which is exactly what we want to happen. you know, like a large part of what governs group is this idea that wherever you go, there you are. And so we know that we see the world not as it is, but as we are. And so if you are somebody who struggles with like, oh, I wasn’t the favorite child in the family, you’re likely going to project some of that in group and see somebody else as like the favorite member of the group. And so it is when you are able to say that thing out loud that the healing really begins, right? Because you are now enacting these same patterns that are likely interfering with your life outside of the group. You know, if anything that gets in the way of your effectiveness and group is not being open to the process, right? And like, not kind of participating.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:29:01 So even though you may not want to talk initially, you can’t be like a non-speaking member of the group forever. Right? Eventually you will feel comfortable enough to want to share to connect with other people. Otherwise, you’ll likely get called out, right? Like other people will not feel comfortable that you are just there kind of sitting and not participating, which again, is all a part of the process.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:21 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that the very things that make it hard are some of the things that make it really beneficial. And I think that knowing that can be really helpful. You know, when I’ve led some groups from our community in the past, I’ll talk about the fact that when you end up in a group, you almost immediately begin judging the other people and judging yourself, because that’s what we do as socially evolved creatures. You can’t turn it off and you can see that it’s happening, though, and observe and go, oh, look at that. Isn’t that interesting? I agree with you.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:58 I think it’s just what somebody who’s helping facilitate a group, ideally, well, will help you to hold that discomfort without running away.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:30:06 Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think that group is the place where it is okay to say some of those internal thoughts that we’re having, right? Because you’re right. Like, you can’t necessarily turn off the judgment or the observations that you’re making about other people in yourself and group is the place where you’re actually wanting to give voice to that thing so that you can figure out, like, oh, I do this in other areas of my life, and I didn’t realize that. But being able to say it in group really gives voice to that and let you work through it.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:33 What sort of programs do you offer through your community and your website? For women of color who are looking to get some of this benefit?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:30:41 So we do have a Sister circle community, which is like our peer support community as a part of therapy for black girls. So it’s not a therapy group.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:30:49 It is more having conversations about different things, offering support to one another, lots of fun events, lots of mostly virtual. But we’re also looking to expand into more in real life kinds of experiences because people really want that. So that’s just a great way for people to connect with people all across the world.
Eric Zimmer 00:31:07 Got it. Eight years ago, I was completely overwhelmed. My life was full with good things, a challenging career, two teenage boys, a growing podcast, and a mother who needed care. But I had a persistent feeling of, I can’t keep doing this, but I valued everything I was doing and I wasn’t willing to let any of them go. And the advice to do less only made me more overwhelmed. That’s when I stumbled into something I now call this still point method, a way of using small moments throughout my day to change not how much I had to do, but how I felt while I was doing it. And so I wanted to build something I wish I’d had eight years ago.
Eric Zimmer 00:31:47 So you don’t have to stumble towards an answer that something is now here and it’s called overwhelm is optional tools for when you can’t do less. It’s an email course that fits into moments you already have. Taking less than ten minutes total a day. It isn’t about doing less, it’s about relating differently to what you do. I think it’s the most useful tool we’ve ever built. The launch price is $29. If life is too full, but you still need relief from overwhelm, check out overwhelm is optional. Go to one you feed. That’s one you get overwhelm. Let’s move from groups to a smaller unit of well, I guess people that you talk about in the book a fair amount, which is friendship. Talk to me about why you see friendship is so valuable.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:32:44 I think it’s just really the foundation of much of our lives. You know, I think we are not meant to be individual in this thing, through going through life. Right? Like, we are social creatures, as you mentioned.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:32:55 And so it is just really helpful to have a support system, a group of people or one person, you know, have a big the group is who supports you and who you can lean on going through life. And I think it just makes things much richer and makes things a lot easier when you can count on other people and when other people can count on you. And I think the pandemic illuminated this in so many ways, like I think many of us took for granted how important connection was to us until, like, we couldn’t really do it and had to figure out all these other ways by virtual game nights and all these other things that we use to try to really stay connected with other people who we maybe were just kind of passing or, you know, didn’t really spend any intentional time with.
Eric Zimmer 00:33:40 Yeah. You talk about in friendship, you say, why is it that friendships allow us to exist in this way that is more open and relaxed? And you say much of it’s likely related to the fact that not much attention or pressure is placed on what friendships look like.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:33:57 Yeah. I think, you know, there’s so many resources Eric, about like how to be a great romantic partner, like how to be a great parent. Like there are all of these books resources, podcasts. And you know thankfully there’s more I think coming out around friendship now, but that largely I would say is in the last like 5 to 7 years. And so we just don’t have the wealth of information about, like how to do friendship. Well, that we have for other relationships in our lives. And I think friendship has largely been relegated to this like second tier kind of relationship in our lives, right? Like romance is important. Parenting is important. Being a good son or daughter, like all of those things have primary importance. And it feels like friendship is this kind of thing that, like, just exists kind of along the way. when friendship really is, in a lot of ways a central relationship in our lives, I think in friendship we learn so much about ourselves. we realize that there are expectations we have in relationships that we can give voice to.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:34:57 And so I’m really, really excited that we are paying more attention to our friends, because I think that there’s just so much great material there for how we respond to friends and how friends respond to us.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:08 Do we run the risk of putting the pressure into the relationship that we have around romantic or parenting, if we focus too much on it?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:35:17 I mean, I think that that’s a risk with anything, right? And I think the conversation really has to be like, here are some things for you to explore versus like, this is the way to be a good friend, right? Because we know that there’s not one answer to any relationship in our lives. But I think the plethora of resources and conversations only does well right now as we continue to explore what friendship means in our lives.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:41 Yeah. I mean, I’m sure you’re exposed to this same thing and see it everywhere in the mental health and wellness space, which is it’s become pretty clear that, you know, perhaps the single most important contributor to overall well-being is relationships.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:59 It just seems like that is being shown again and again in studies. And I think it’s all of it to me. For me, it’s been a matter of seeing that romantic partnerships count, family counts, friendship counts, groups count. They’re all part of that and they all matter.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:36:20 Yeah. You know Esther Perel talks about this in her work, how historically we have relied much more on a village to get our needs met. Right. Like there were friends that you, you know, kind of did your chores with and then friends you hung out with for pleasure. And, you know, then maybe you’re a romantic partner. And at some point, like, all of that kind of became focused on our romantic partner. Right? Like that. This is the person who meets all of these needs and how unsustainable that is. And so I’m really glad that we are exploring this idea that, like, we do actually need a village. We do need a variety of people to meet different needs in our lives.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:16 Do you have tips for people about making new friendships later in life.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:37:22 I think this is so important. This question comes up quite a lot because I think, you know, when you’re young or like in college, like it’s kind of like these ready made options for you to develop friends, right? But I think when you’re older and kind of in the workforce, it takes a lot more work. And so one of the things that I suggest for people is to look around in the background of your life, to see if there is someone who could move to the foreground with a little bit of effort. So is there somebody who you kind of see in the carpool line when you’re dropping your kids off for work, or somebody who sits next to you in a yoga class and you kind of exchange pleasantries, but it’s never gone further? Can you take a step to see if this could be a more important relationship? So can you open yourself up to say, hey, do you want to grab a smoothie after yoga? Or hey, do you want to grab breakfast after we drop the kids off? Now the thing that gets in our way is that nobody likes rejection, right? Like nobody wants to be told No.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:38:19 But the only way that we can get closer to these opportunities for connection is, unfortunately, to open ourselves up to a little bit of rejection. But I think that for a lot of us, there are people kind of just in the background who could become more important, right? And not necessarily like your new best friend. Though that could happen, but it could become somebody that is important for you, that can become a part of your support circle.
Speaker 4 00:38:41 Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:38:42 I want to also add, Eric, I think another great way, of course, to find people who can become a part of your circle is to engage in the kinds of things that you are interested in, and then you likely meet other people who are also interested in that. Right. So taking a new class at your local college or university, signing up for some kind of meetup group, or getting involved with a faith community like all of those, are great opportunities for you to just meet other people who have similar interests, which is often a way that friendship begins.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:11 Yeah. Yep. You talk about something called self silencing. What does that mean?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:39:16 Yeah. So self silencing really refers to this idea that, like, we make small of our needs and our desires so that we don’t put it on other people. So I’m going to pretend as if I don’t want this thing, or I don’t desire this thing, or I am going to kind of make it seem as if I’m like, not high maintenance, because I don’t want to burden you by this idea or burden you with the idea that I need something. And we often do this quite a lot in our relationships, particularly as women, as much of our socialization has taught us to kind of put other people’s needs ahead of our own.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:48 And so what are our ways of noticing that that’s actually what’s happening and then working with it?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:39:55 Yeah. So I think if you take account of like how many in not in a, a scoreboard kind of way, but like just paying attention to when other people ask you for things versus how much you actually ask other people for things, for a lot of people that will be imbalanced.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:40:12 So kind of just paying attention, I think, again, is the first step of, you know, noticing this for yourself. And then again, I think giving voice to it and like changing that behavior slowly but surely. Right. So again, not in a tit for tat kind of way, but if you actually don’t have the bandwidth to bring somebody to the airport or to take on this new task at work, like being vocal about that and just allowing the system to change around you. Because once people are familiar and comfortable with you being the person that always says yes, it can take a little bit of work for that system to readjust, right? But it has to. If you change the way that you are interacting. And so I think making small changes is a great way to kind of get out of that habit of self silencing.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:54 Right? And it’s always so uncomfortable when we start to make those changes.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:40:58 Yeah. And I think it’s important to note, Eric, that just because you’re uncomfortable doesn’t mean that you’re heading in the wrong direction.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:41:04 It just means that there are some changes. Growing pains are part of most experiences that change in our lives. And so people, I think, often get uncomfortable. And then that signals to them like, oh, I must be doing a bad thing, when really it likely means that you’re moving in the right direction.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:19 Right, right. It does seem that the way that we respond when we’re uncomfortable is to retreat, and knowing that that’s going to occur helps us to stay with whatever changes we’re trying to make.
Speaker 4 00:41:34 Right.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:35 Our culture has started, to use a phrase so much that it’s almost ubiquitous and tends to almost mean nothing because it’s used in so many different ways. And that term is holding space. But you talk about it in a more specific way. What do you mean by holding space?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:41:54 You know, Eric, I have to laugh because I hate that, like holding space has gotten this like, oh, it kind of means nothing. Because in my mind, it is one of the most powerful things that we can do for one another.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:42:06 And so when I’m talking about holding space, I am talking about being able to provide a container for somebody to put something in right? And figuratively, of course. Right. So when I’m talking about holding space for one another, it means that I’m creating an environment with you where you do not feel judged or the judgment feels minimal, that you can share with me something that’s very intimate, very personal, maybe very shameful for you. And you can trust that I can hold that for you until you’re ready to pick it back up, or as we kind of make sense of it together, but it really means providing a figurative container for somebody to share something that’s pretty personal.
Eric Zimmer 00:42:44 That’s pretty concrete and important.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:42:46 Yeah, yeah. And again, it really is the foundation of connection, right? Like that is what is most meaningful in relationships. And I talk about this also in the book that conflict often going back to our earlier conversation of things feeling uncomfortable. Conflict often happens in friendships and in other relationships.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:43:04 And it often signals to people like, oh, this is too hard. Or like, I don’t want to do this, but conflict when you can actually navigate it Aggregated together actually increases the intimacy in a relationship. So I think people often think if we are fighting or there’s something we don’t agree about. This may mean the end of the relationship, but really, if you can navigate it together and realize like, okay, like this was a bumpy road, but we like traveled it together, it often unlocks this new level of intimacy in relationships and friendships that I think is really, really important.
Eric Zimmer 00:43:37 That is a lesson I feel like I have spent a lifetime trying to learn, and probably will spend the rest of my lifetime learning. I think given, you know, family dynamics where conflict was always destructive, it never went anywhere positive. And I think maybe something personality wise like, I know that and I have to talk myself through that nearly every single time that conflict is on the horizon, which is, oh, not saying something here is actually going to be worse for this relationship, for this dynamic, than actually saying something, but it does not come easy.
Speaker 4 00:44:15 Yeah.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:44:16 No. And I love that you’re talking about, like, having to talk yourself through it. Right. Because I think that that is the case for a lot of us, like most of us, were probably not raised in spaces where, like conflict was taught that it’s a good thing. And like, we can disagree in healthy ways. Like, I think a lot of us are figuring that out as adults and maybe trying to teach, you know, the young people in our lives, something different. But I think a lot of us struggle with that. And so it’s okay to struggle with it. Right? It is okay to not do it right the first time. Like there are often things that happen that will keep happening, right? Like so I think people will often feel like, oh, I didn’t say something that one time, but usually these things repeat themselves. And so you always have another opportunity to do a better job the next time, or to go back and say, hey, we had this conversation on Tuesday and I’m still feeling a little unsettled about something.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:45:03 I wonder if I could talk with you about it, right? Like so. You don’t even always have to address it in the moment. It is really about just addressing it in general. That is really important.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:12 Yeah. And that certainly seems to be the case that these things, like you said, often you get a second or third or fourth try because if it’s enough in my case to bother me enough that I probably should say something, it’s probably not a one time thing. I mean, I’m not saying that’s always true, but it’s often the repetitious nature of it that starts to make it something where I’m like, oh, this is really starting to bother me.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:45:38 Exactly, exactly. Especially if it’s like with people who are, you know, figures in our lives. Right? So whether that be a friend, a partner, a parent. Like we get multiple opportunities to interact with these people. And so it’s likely going to come up again.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:52 I know that one of the things it’s a disclaimer you start your show with, which is, hey, this show is not a substitute for working with a licensed mental health professional.
Eric Zimmer 00:46:04 So I’m giving that caveat since you give it. And a lot of people either don’t have access to therapy or are not at a point where they’re ready to do that. And yet they might be wrestling with different things. And I’m just going to pick a couple common things that people might describe and see if there’s any tips that you tend to recommend to people. Again, not in substitute of getting more help, but maybe from a do it yourself perspective a little bit. And the first would be anxiety. I’m curious if you could first maybe delineate for us the difference between a general nervousness about the way certain things are going to turn out that I think is just part of the human condition and what starts to become anxiety?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:46:54 That’s a great question Eric. So everybody experiences anxiety. Anxiety disorders are the most diagnosed mental health concerns. So I want people to know that if you struggle with anxiety, whether it is a normal level or something that is diagnosable, You are in good company because all of us have anxiety.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:47:12 But the thing that differentiates, like you need a little bit of anxiety to like get you off the sofa when you know you should be like writing a paper or recording a podcast episode, right? Like, there’s a little bit of anxiety in our lives that is necessary, but when it crosses the line to interfering with other things in your life is when it can become concerning. So if the level of anxiety you’re experiencing stops you from interacting with people in your life who you really want to be interacting with, it forces you to feel so uncomfortable that you can’t leave your house, or you’re having difficulty just operating in your daily life. That is when I think that is an area of concern and something that may require some additional attention.
Eric Zimmer 00:47:54 So assuming that we’re not into anxiety disorder, we’re just in the normal anxiety, which would range from very little to, you know, perhaps an amount that makes us fairly uncomfortable. What are some ways of working with that?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:48:08 So one of the most helpful things I think for people can be to play this game with themselves called and what next? Right.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:48:16 So for a lot of us, anxiety is about like this worst possible scenario happening. So if I do this thing then this thing will happen. And so asking yourself and so what? Like if that thing happens and then what if you play that out enough, you realize you get to a point where it’s like, okay, I get to this worst case scenario and the world does not end. And so I think being able to play that out and like figure out, okay, what resources do I need at each of these steps to support myself if this awful thing happens, can really help people to, like, relax a little. Maybe not completely, but when you realize, like, okay, even if this worst possible thing happens, I will be okay. I have people in my life I can call on. I have resources to get support with whatever it is. I think that can really help people to let go of some of that anxiety. Also, grounding techniques really help with anxiety. So grounding techniques are helping you to focus in the moment because anxiety is often powered by like future worries that we have.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:49:21 But if you are focused on this moment, like I can feel my feet in my carpet, I can hear the clock ticking in my room, that I am focused only in this present moment, which does not allow my brain to then worry about, oh, what if I get in an accident on the interstate? Right. And so grounding techniques that help you to stay connected to the present moment can be really helpful for that anxiety as well.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:44 I love the and then what idea, because it sort of makes us get a little more specific and move out of this generalized cloud of fear into something more specific, where either we will realize, oh, well, that’s really pretty unlikely that it’s ever going to get that far. Or to your point. What would I do if I could? I mean, my favorite strategy for anxiety is simply reminding myself that whatever it is, I will be able to cope with it. Just reminding myself of that simple fact like you have the resources, you will be able to cope with this.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:50:20 Yeah. Even if it feels really difficult. Right. Like I think that that can be helpful because you’re right. Like it often feels very nebulous in our heads, but we get it on paper or we do this exercise with ourselves. We realize, like, yes, that might be bad. And I also have all of these things that could support me through some difficult thing happening.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:38 Yeah, the grounding techniques that you’re talking about, do you find that people need to gain some amount of skill at using them, so that in moments when they are anxious, they’re more helpful? Because I certainly know if I’m at a really high level of emotional energy, I might try and pay attention to the clock ticking. And that’s going to last for like one tick of the clock and then I’m back in it. And so do you recommend that people practise these things at other times? Do you recommend that they stick with them for a certain duration of time? Like how do we make them useful in these moments when our emotional system is fairly revved up?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:51:25 That’s such a great point.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:51:26 So I do typically recommend that these be things that you practice when you’re not activated emotionally, so that when you do need them, that it is a bit of second nature. And there are so many different grounding techniques that you do need to do a little bit of research, a little bit of homework to find the ones that work best for you. Because again, when you are kind of feeling really activated and emotionally heightened, it’s harder for your brain to kind of think through like, okay, what was that YouTube video? You know, so you want to do a little bit of preparation on the front end so that when you need this toolbox, so to speak, it’s kind of readily available to you and you are able to access it kind of on autopilot.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:04 Yeah, I had a meditation teacher who used to say, practice now while you can for the times that you can’t. And I just thought that was a really useful sort of instruction, which was the time will come where you these techniques would be really useful.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:18 But if you haven’t practiced them, they’re not going to help that much. But it’s never too late to start. Right.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:52:25 Exactly, exactly.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:27 So I’d like to wrap us up by asking you a little bit about what can the wider community do to support mental health initiatives specifically tailored for black women or for people of color? What can those of us that are not part of that community do to support the type of work that you are doing to make these things more accessible and less stigmatized?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:52:50 I think sharing the resources help a ton. So just allowing more people to know about the resources I think goes a very long way, because you never know who needs the resource or who knows somebody who needs the resource, so being able to share the directory. Share about our sister circle I think goes a long way. Also funding you know. So if you are in a position to be able to donate to different organizations, there’s an organization called the Loveland Foundation started by Rachel Cargill, that does incredible work in actually providing vouchers for black women and other women of color to be able to go to therapy, because we’ve already talked about how that may not be an option for people.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:53:28 So supporting initiatives like that, I think is really, really important. But I think, again, sharing goes a really long way and being able to kind of fight trolls when necessary. Right. So not necessarily on social media posts, but, you know, there may be some trolling even in your real life of people who say like, well, why do we need this thing? Or like, oh, this is silly. Like we all have mental health to take care of. Yes, that is the case. And like, yes. And and there is a specific need for these kinds of resources for people who have largely been left out of the larger conversation. So being able to talk about the importance of it and really add the validity to people who may be questioning, I think also really helps our work.
Eric Zimmer 00:54:12 Doctor Joy, thank you so much for coming on. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you. We’ll have links in the show notes to all the resources that you just mentioned, and it was a really nice to meet you and really nice to get to talk.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford 00:54:23 Likewise. Thank you so much for having me.
Eric Zimmer 00:54:25 Eric, thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I’d love for you to share it with a friend. Share it from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don’t have a big budget, and I’m certainly not a celebrity. But we have something even better. And that’s you just hit the share button on your podcast app, or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the one You Feed community.
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