How to Tame Your Advice Monster and Become a Better Listener | Michael Bungay Stanier

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Episode Transcript:

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:00:00  The more you can realize how little you actually know about the person, about what’s really going on, about what’s really hard for them, about what the context really is. The more you can realize how unlikely it is that the advice you’ve got is the advice that they’re actually looking for.

Chris Forbes 00:00:25  Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts. We have quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Eric Zimmer 00:01:09  Most of us have what Michael Bungay Stanier calls an advice monster. The part of us that can’t wait to weigh in, fix things, and offer the solution before the other person has finished talking. Taming it, he says, comes down to one big change. Stay curious a little longer. Rush to advice a little more slowly. That idea sits at the center of the coaching habit. The best selling coaching book of the last 25 years, now in its 10th anniversary edition. His conclusion after a decade of teaching it, I need to know almost none of the content to be helpful. I’m Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed Michael. Welcome back.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:01:52  Eric, how nice of you to invite me back. Clearly your memory is going because you can’t remember how bad I was the last time, and you were persuaded to bring me.

Eric Zimmer 00:02:00  Back the last three times? Because as I was saying to you before, you are a four time guest, which is pretty rare company. I don’t know if it’s company you want to be part of or not, but it is rare company.

Eric Zimmer 00:02:12  So yes, we had you on in 2016, 2223. I’ve had you more recently than that. You might be a five time guest.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:02:21  Well, maybe what’s happened in the last 2 or 3 years is we’ve gone from knowing each other through podcasts to actually becoming friends and companions. So, I mean, yeah, we’ve we’ve had lots of great conversations about your book, which I’m super excited about and what it means to write a book and what it means to try and sell a book and all of those things. And we’re also connected through J. Klaus’s community, the lab. So I think we’ve just kind of deepened, deepened our friendship a little bit over the last number of years, which has been lovely.

Eric Zimmer 00:02:50  Yeah, that was a way of saying I’ve seen way too much of you like that, wasn’t it? All right.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:02:55  I hear you. I hear the subtext.

Eric Zimmer 00:02:57  So we are going to be talking about your book called The Coaching Habit. Say less, ask more. Change the Way You Lead Forever, which is in its 10th anniversary.

Eric Zimmer 00:03:08  You came on in 2016 and we discussed it. And is it the best selling coaching book of all time? Is that a true statement?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:03:14  Well, it’s the best selling coaching book of this millennia. This is the most dramatic way I can put it, which is like over the last 25 years, it’s sold, you know, a million and a half copies or thereabouts, which, considering it got turned down by a regular publisher and I ended up self-publishing, is pretty fantastic. You self-published.

Eric Zimmer 00:03:34  That?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:03:35  Yeah. Yeah, I.

Eric Zimmer 00:03:37  I did not know that. Wow.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:03:39  I had another book published through a New York publisher called Do More Great Work. And then I bought them this idea for this book, and I literally wrote 6 or 7 versions of the coaching habit, which they kept going. And we like you, but not yet. Go away and have another go at it. And eventually I was like, okay, so you know, you beaten my confidence up a bit, but I’m really sure that there’s something here.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:04:03  So here it is. Take it or leave it, because I can’t take this back and forth anymore. Pretty confident that they were going to take it because, you know, the previous book had sold 70 or 80,000 copies, which is yeah, pretty good.

Eric Zimmer 00:04:15  Very.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:04:15  Good. And they said no. And so I was disappointed because it was the polite way of putting it, and I licked my wounds for a bit, but then went, you know, I’m really going to I really think there’s something here. So I’m going to self-publish it. So I found a designer and I found an editor, and then I connected in the end with a hybrid publishing company called Page Two that had done my book since then. But yeah, I self-published it, which has meant not only has it become a best seller, not only does that make me feel very smug, but it’s also financially more lucrative for me as well. Like, I earn 3 or 4 times the amount of money as a result of that which has has been life changing.

Eric Zimmer 00:04:55  That is a classic example of, you know, there’s that old Taoist story, right? The farmer and the horse. Right? Many people know it, right? It’s basically like something good happens and everybody says to the farmer, oh, congratulations. He’s like, well, you know, maybe, sure, maybe. And something bad happens and they’re like, oh, this is terrible. And he’s like, maybe. And the point is it just keeps going. Yeah. And that’s a classic example of like, okay, the book got turned down by the publisher. I’ve just been beaten about the head for like a year. Yeah, it’s pretty low point. It’s pretty easy to conclude. I just don’t have it. This isn’t any good I don’t. And then bam! I mean, that is that is such a great story. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:05:38  It’s one of those great ways of trying to navigate life, which is when do you keep going and when do you give it up? Yeah. And it’s really helpful to understand, there are times where it’s been great to keep going.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:05:52  Like the coaching habit book seems to say, keep going. Keep betting on yourself. Right. But, it’s also. There are times in life where you’re like, you should take a hint and you should actually know when to quit. And one of the things that I’ve been sitting with is trying not to figure out what’s the right answer. Do I keep going or do I not keep going? It’s actually going. What’s my bias? Like, what am I inclined to do in a situation rather than what’s the right answer in this situation? So my inclination in general is to keep going too long. Like I’m I’m a stick with it rather than a quit early sort of person. And you know that that bet pays off, regularly. And also that cost me time and effort and money and relationships as well, because I’ve stuck around too long and it hasn’t worked out. So the wisdom for me in this story is know your bias. And as you come to a crossroads, consider what you’re called to do and then consider your bias and go, what’s this telling me? What’s my bias telling me? And do you need to shift your decision at all when you become more conscious of what your bias is?

Eric Zimmer 00:07:06  Yes, 100%.

Eric Zimmer 00:07:07  I refer to it as tendency. What’s your tendency to do in this situation? And knowing that can be really helpful. For me, I have a tendency to go along to get along. So if I think I should say something, I will talk myself out of it very, very easily. So I have to over correct a little bit. I have to give a little bit more weight to the say something side, because that’s my bias. I know what I, I know what I will naturally gravitate to. And learning that about ourselves is so helpful. We talked on your podcast recently about this idea of like, how do we hold ourselves accountable while being kind? And when I work with coaching clients often, that’s what one of the early things I’m trying to figure out. Does this person have a tendency to just run themselves into the ground with negative self-talk? Okay, I need to correct the other direction. Is this somebody who just doesn’t take enough responsibility for what they do?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:08:03  They’re like, oh, I’m doing self-care.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:08:05  So it’s fine that I didn’t do the thing. And you’re like, okay. So yeah, we’re trying to move you more into that kind of conscious middle.

Eric Zimmer 00:08:13  Yeah, I think that’s what a good coach or teacher does. Right. They know. And so doing it for ourselves is really valuable. That’s a great insight.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:08:21  It’s a paradox really, Eric, which is like it’s like trust your inner voice and don’t trust your inner voice, which is like, get better at tuning in to to what’s going on and what your intuition is saying and what your body is saying. There’s so much wisdom in doing that, but also be skeptical about what’s going on, which is like, you know, it’s like it’s like when your brain tells you that your brain is your most important organ and you’re like, but wait. What? What? Organs telling me that. Yeah, it’s more deeply trust yourself and become more skeptical about the stories you tell yourself and hold both of those things.

Eric Zimmer 00:08:58  Yeah, I could not agree more.

Eric Zimmer 00:09:00  I could not agree more. I every time I have somebody on who’s like, trust your intuition, I’m like, well okay. But like yeah. Yes. And there’s a little more to it here than that. Okay. We have, failed to do the basic premise of the show, which is probably fine. Most listeners are like, do I really need Michael to talk about the parable for the fourth time? They’re going to get it whether they want it or not. And those of you that are new, here you go. This is what you come for. The parable. In the parable, there’s a grandparent who’s talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. one is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins, right? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.

Eric Zimmer 00:10:01  So talk to me about that parable through the lens of the coaching habit. Ten year anniversary.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:10:10  Well, what comes up for me, Eric, is an inquiry about how do you keep showing up as the best version of yourself. You know, how which is at the deepest level, what coaching is about? I mean, coaching presents as a let’s get together and figure some stuff out because you feel stuck and you want to make progress. But at a deeper level, it’s like, how do I bring out the very best in someone? And there’s an obvious answer which I suspect you’ve heard more than once on this pod, which is like I try and feed the good wolf and I try not to feed the bad wolf. But there’s something about the power of just recognizing the two wolves, because they’re just both there and me. Nobody wins. My wolves will be fighting forever. Yeah, like I have. I have both of these wolves. And I have a part of me that is kind and generous and thoughtful and all the things that I, you know, I would overtly aspire to be.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:11:11  And I just recognize the parts of me that are malicious and avaricious and self-centered and insensitive and power hungry and status worried and all of that sort of stuff that more kind of, let’s call it the more venal side of me. And it’s just it’s just like they both, they both coexist. And I’m less about these days, probably less about trying to to find a victor. I’m more about just seeing the two wolves and going. They are both true about who I am and I’m never going to have one win over the other, which is great because I don’t want the bad wolf to win over the good wolf. And I’m probably a little one dimensional if the good wolf wins over the bad wolf. My goal, and this is kind of getting into, you know, Jungian shadow work. And I think of people like Dan Siegel’s book Mine Site or Debbie Ford’s book The Dark Side of the Light Chasers is to see what’s true about my shadow self and claim it for myself, not so that I become bad, but so that I recognize that those are parts of who I am, and I’m actually less likely to be triggered by that, or have that behavior leak out because I’m in denial about it.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:12:37  I’m trying to I’m trying to integrate. Yeah. In all the kind of messy catastrophe that I am.

Eric Zimmer 00:12:43  And there is an energy in some of those less ideal parts of ourselves I find, right? There’s energy there that can be that can be used. But I love the fact that you said that, because that’s the thing to me about the parable ultimately, is I just think it normalizes the fact that, like, this is going on inside all of us. And. Right, of course it is. Of course, sometimes you want to be good and other times you want to, you know, walk out a Whole Foods with an entire shopping cart of groceries without paying for that. Like, that’s just completely normal, right? Well, maybe that was a that was a that’s a very specific example.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:13:19  Yeah, exactly.

Eric Zimmer 00:13:21  If you’re listening, if you’re an Amazon employee, please disregard that.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:13:28  I mean, one of the most powerful exercises I’ve ever done for myself comes from this dark side of the Light Chasers book that I mentioned.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:13:34  And I had noticed that I was, in a mental battle with a former boss of mine. Now, I’d quit this job. I’ve moved to a different country, and almost the whole time I didn’t think about that job. But occasionally this guy would enter into my my mind and I’d just get hit up. You know, I just kind of imagine the back and forth where I would finally crush him and and belittle him and prove my birth and his belittling. And I did this exercise. And point one is you think of your your nemesis, your villain, and you write down all the things that just you just hate about them, just drive you crazy, you know? So I’m writing, this guy is status obsessed. He’s money driven. He controls the power. He doesn’t like people. he’s small minded, all of these things. And it was. It felt pretty good writing all these down because I’m like, these are all true. I’m pretty sure about it. But then the second step and the powerful step is you then kind of cross out that person’s name and you go, I am I am power obsessed.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:14:45  I am status driven, I am money hungry, I am, I don’t care about people, I only care about my own self-aggrandizing. And that just was this truth to writing this down as I named and claimed and owned all these aspects about me, which I just couldn’t but deny. But I just had spent my whole life kind of pushing them into my shadows, just pretending that they weren’t part of who I am. And you know, I can’t promise us that it works like this for everybody all the time. But in that moment, kind of in abound, I was free.

Eric Zimmer 00:15:22  Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:15:22  I have just never thought about this guy again in the same way. I mean, he’s shown up once or twice in conversations or whatever, but I just, I just don’t get hit up about it. I’m like, look, wherever he is, I hope he’s doing fine. I’m totally happy never to bump into him ever again in my life. I don’t want I don’t want to meet him or talk to him.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:15:40  But I’m no longer I’m no longer distracted by him.

Eric Zimmer 00:15:43  I have two things to say that. First is head up an Australian expression.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:15:48  Oh, I don’t know. It feels British to me. You know, my dad was British and I lived in England for a while, so I think it might be,

Eric Zimmer 00:15:55  It might be British.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:15:56  Yeah, but it’s sort of Anglo in some way.

Eric Zimmer 00:15:58  Yeah, yeah, it’s a great phrase. It’s not one I would normally use. The second one is you were saying that I was thinking about one of my most common arguments in my head that runs very often, and it has to do with the guy who’s editing this podcast right now. Of course.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:16:13  Yeah.

Eric Zimmer 00:16:14  Who for most of the time is a perfectly reasonable and enjoyable human being. But when it comes to certain music that he should like, he doesn’t. And I spend an inordinate amount of time in my mind. I don’t know why I even bother. I argue in my head with him to convince him And I’m realizing now maybe this is a problem I needed.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:16:38  Yeah. Maybe you’ve got some shadow work to do around your crystals. Let me know about your taste of music. And actually, it’s not it’s not that great. So I’m kind of on Chris’s side on this one.

Eric Zimmer 00:16:48  No, trust me, you would not be. You would not be. All right, moving on. All right. The coaching habit. I’m going to make a couple statements about it. You can feel free to disagree with them if you want. But in general, I think it was a book that normalized that having conversations with people in which we’re trying to bring out the best version of themselves is a thing that can happen in a whole lot of situations without the fancy name life coach in front of it. I think that’s one of the things you wanted to do. And then the second is that you primarily made it around asking the right questions. That coaching is, in its most basic, is a form of asking questions so that others can help find their way to the answer Is that generally correct? Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:17:35  I mean, I agree, and I’ll give you my exact language around how I think about it. The goal was to un weird coaching for normal people. Okay. I had trained as a coach. I could see the power of this as a technology, but coaching still has this. But back ten years ago certainly had just too much woo woo and mystery and black box. And I was like, look, there’s a whole bunch of people managers, parents, teachers, sports coaches who could benefit from knowing how to do this. And I just want to make it easy and accessible for people. So unwitting coaching was kind of the big goal. And then in terms of naming a single behavior change I was hoping to create, it was helping people to stay curious a little bit longer. So I would that’s that’s obviously really closely related to the ask good questions. But there’s a way that staying curious longer. It is not necessarily only about asking questions. It’s about staying present. It’s about taming your advice, monster.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:18:40  It’s about creating more space. It’s about staying a bit more silent and listening a bit more deeply. There’s more to it than just a good question, but in the end, the book says, look, let me give you seven good questions. Let me give you some tips on how to ask a question. Well, and that’s going to carry you a long way down the path.

Speaker 4 00:19:03  How? Do.

Eric Zimmer 00:19:25  You confess in the ten year edition that you originally had 108 questions in the book. Yeah, I, I assume that was one of the ones that got rejected by that publisher. Yeah, right.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:19:40  That was like the third draft where they’re like, oh, go away and write another version of this book. And I’m like, okay, well, okay, what if there’s 100? I like the number 108. And yeah, it was a it was a shocker. That was a terrible book. That was one of the rejected versions of it as well. So, you know, I spent years really playing with the questions and trying to figure out the order and figure out which of the seven, you know, should be five.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:20:02  Should it be nine? Should it be some other number? Yeah. Which of which of them? In what order do I teach them? Yeah, there was a lot of playing around with a lot of scraps of paper where I kept writing things down and moving them around.

Eric Zimmer 00:20:13  Well, I think questions are so fundamental. In questions we ask ourselves, the questions we ask others. I think you are a person who, more than anyone I know, may have really taken that on board. I mean, I believe I was part of a book where you captured collections from. I mean, you might have called them smart people. I’m not throwing myself in that category, but so questions of clearly something you really believe in. And in this 10th anniversary, there’s a new chapter. And one of the things in that chapter is you call it coaching question architecture. Yeah. And so I want to get to that in a second. But before we get into sort of that semi technical discussion, how might we think about coming up with our own good questions.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:21:03  Yeah. Starting with a what if I asked a question rather than offered up an opinion, an advice, a suggestion, a solution you’ve already won? That’s already a fantastic start, particularly if it’s a it’s a genuine question, not a fake question, because sometimes people have gone all questions are good. But let me offer up this piece of advice disguised as a question. So they go, hey, have you thought about. Which isn’t a question at all. It’s just advice for the question mark attached to the end. Yeah, but the first thing to know is, look, if you can, if you can just ask any good question or it’s any question that’s probably helpful a lot of the time. So celebrate that. Then there are just some basics around questions that are good to know, which is it’s good to know just the difference between an open question and a closed question. And lots of people listening already know this, but a closed question typically will get an answer yes or no, or maybe or I don’t know or I don’t care.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:22:02  But it’s kind of a question that often leads to a focusing of the conversation. And they have a place. There’s a way that a closed question can create understanding or create commitment. So it’s not that you should never use closed questions, but if you’re trying to get a conversation rolling, close question will typically have you doing a lot of the work and an open question. You know, it requires a person to give you more than a one or a two word answer, so that’s helpful. The second kind of basic, really essential to understand is shorter questions tend to be better than longer questions. I’m in trouble, though on exactly you and your polysyllabic approach to life. The more cognitive lifting somebody has to do to understand your question, the harder it is for them to come up with a good answer. So one of the things that I see people do is sometimes they feel the need to set context, create a big build up, you know, explain where they went on their family vacation two years ago as part of the lead into it, and eventually get to a question.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:23:08  And quite often, I mean, I sort of say, look, pretend you’re James Bond. You know, in a James Bond movie, the action starts the first second the movie starts. I mean, James Bond is jumping off a dam or beating somebody up or in a car or something. It’s on, so you should get to it fast. The other thing that people sometimes do is they kind of do it like a drive by questioning approach, which is like, here’s 19 questions I’ve thought of. I’m just going to ask you, all of them and hope one of them sticks. And that can be kind of overwhelming. So one of the things that can be really powerful is just shortening a question. So if you want if you want a lead up phrase to it, the phrase hey, just out of curiosity is a really good one. It actually softens the impact of a question that might be difficult. And then just make it a short question. Hey, just out of curiosity, what’s hard about this for you? Hey, just out of curiosity, what do you really want in this moment? Hey, just out of curiosity, if we’re going to say yes to this, is there anything we need to say no to? To make that choice a bolder one and a clearer one? Hey, just out of curiosity, what was useful for you in this conversation right now? One of the questions in the book is I call it the most powerful coaching question in the world.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:24:25  It’s just three words. It’s. And what else? Because their first answer is not necessarily their only answer. It may not even be their best answer. So you know, and what else is an incredibly powerful coaching question? But yeah, make a choice whether you want it to be closed or open. Keep it short. That’s a really good start. And then ask any question that comes to mind.

Eric Zimmer 00:24:48  Well, you did something impressive there. You actually illustrated your point by working in five or so of the seven coaching questions in the book. That was that was very good. If we were to say, hey, AI, take Michael’s advice on asking questions and apply it to Eric’s approach to podcasting, interviewing, and give him a grade, I’m pretty sure I’d be in the D range.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:25:13  So I mean, the upside would be your your interviews would be like 17 minutes rather than an hour long thing. It’s like everybody’s like desperate. We’re like, we should stop talking, Eric, and just get to it.

Eric Zimmer 00:25:24  For crying out loud. I’m sure there’s people who think that. I’m sure there are. At 12 years in, I’m not saying I can’t grow and change, but I. You know, I got a little old dog.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:25:34  Yeah, I.

Eric Zimmer 00:25:35  Just got a little bit of style at this point. Those are all really good rules. And I was thinking a little bit earlier about something that you say at a later point in this new chapter, which is that what people want beyond an answer are three interrelated things to be seen, to be heard, to be encouraged. And I love that you say beyond an answer, because you’re not precluding that. People actually do want answers. Right. I think that we often get into this either or with this. Either I need to see here and encourage and validate or I’m over here giving advice, you know, stepping into solution. And there’s some research out there that seems to show that the most useful conversations are where both occurs. Not advice. Not advice, but something beyond simple validation.

Eric Zimmer 00:26:29  And that’s what I love about what you’re bringing here is it’s a way to see, hear, encourage, validate. And I don’t love this word, but I’m going to use it. Challenge.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:26:42  Yeah. Well it’s I mean it’s interesting you say there’s research out there saying, look the best conversations have have a mix of this. I’ve got a slightly different point of view.

Eric Zimmer 00:26:51  Okay.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:26:52  The best conversations are the ones that are actually helpful to the person who you’re having the conversation with. So ask them how you can be most helpful because it will depend like there’s some times where people come to you and they’re like, they do not want a coaching question. They just want you to tell them where you put the tea bags because they can’t find the tea bags. So they’re like, where are the tea bags?

Eric Zimmer 00:27:19  That’s a real challenge here.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:27:21  Yeah, exactly. How do you feel about tea? And I stop with the coaching question. Give me. Just tell me where the tea bags are. And there are other times where they’re like, they just want you to.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:27:30  They don’t even want you to ask a question. They just want you to say, man, that sounds like it’s hard. Man, I can see why you’re struggling with that. Wow. I’m so impressed that you’re you’re able to sit with this and try and figure this out. There’s no there’s not even any questioning involved. There’s just a kind of a presence to the struggle or a presence to whatever’s going on with you. So, you know, the definition I have for coaching is can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice, giving a little bit more slowly? Yeah. So it doesn’t preclude giving advice. That’s one of the things that drives me nuts around coaching, which is like you can never give advice. And I’m like, that feels like it’s a selfish decision. What you’re trying to do is to be as helpful as possible to the person who you’re serving, who you’re in conversation with, and partly you can understand that from what they want. You can ask them, hey, how can I how can I help? It’s actually another one of the questions in the Coaching habit book.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:28:28  How can I help? What do you want from me? And sometimes the more subtle insight here is when they tell you what they want. You don’t have to say yes. You can say yes or no. Or maybe like I could say, hey Eric, how can I help you here? Because like, tell me the answer to this thing. And I’m like, okay, he wants the answer. I’ve got an answer. I will make sure he gets an answer, but I don’t have to give it to him right away. So I might say, and this is a script people can steal. I go, hey, Eric, I hear your challenge, and I hear you want an answer. I’ve got an answer I want to share with you for sure. I’ve got a couple of great answers. but before I give you what I’m thinking, let me ask you. What have you figured out already? Like, what do you know to be true? What do you think the real challenge is here for you and I will get that other person to do the work.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:29:17  I will stay curious longer. And then I’ll bring in my advice and my solution, because I’ve made a promise that they’ll walk out of here with a solution. I just don’t need to give that as the first thing.

Eric Zimmer 00:29:51  Check in for a moment. Is your jaw tight, breath shallow. Are your shoulders creeping up? Those little signals are invitations to slow down and listen. Every Wednesday, I send weekly bites of wisdom, a short email that turns the big ideas we explore here in each show things like mental health, anxiety. Relationships, purpose into bite size practices you can use the same day it’s free. It takes about a minute to read and thousands already swear by it if you’d like extra fuel for the weekend. You also get a weekend podcast playlist. Join us at one UFI newsletter. That’s one you get and start receiving your next bite of wisdom. All right, back to the show. What I found in coaching people was at a certain point, people are like, I hired you because I don’t know what to do, for crying out loud.

Eric Zimmer 00:30:51  What should I do? And if I just keep being like, well, you know what? I’m going to ask you this. I could sense of frustration, which is like, I don’t know. Help me. And I love what you said, which is you’re going to get it. I have some opinions. Yeah, but hang on a little bit longer.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:31:07  So when somebody comes to you, go, man, that sounds like a real problem. What have you already figured out? And what else have you figured out? Great. What other ideas have you got? And how else are you thinking about this? This is brilliant stuff, I love it. So having seen all of that, what do you think the real challenge is here? I mean, really for you? Great. What else is the challenge? So what do you think the real challenge is? If that’s the real challenge, what are your first ideas about this? Oh, I love that. What else could you do? Oh that’s interesting.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:31:32  What else could you do? Oh, man. Is there anything else you could do here? Okay, you’ve got some great options here. I’ve got 1 or 2 I can add here. Maybe this and this. now you see all of that. What is it that you want to do? Oh, you want to do that? Oh, okay. So what’s the real challenge here for you in getting that done? and, you know, if you’re listening to this, you can imagine all the other things that are saying on the other side. What I’ve learned is I need to know almost none of the content to be helpful. And I’ll give you an example of what I mean by that. You know, over the years, because I’ve been the book has been out for ten years, but I’ve been teaching this for 15 years. I’ve taught this in a lot of different countries around the world. I have coached people in more than 30 languages, none of which I speak. So I will say to somebody like, I used to work with Nokia, so I’m up in Lapland, northern Finland.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:32:28  It’s like, you know, there’s a Finnish joke which is like, how can you tell the difference between an extroverted Finn and an introverted Finn? Well, extroverted Finns look at your shoes when they’re talking to you, and introverted Finns look at their shoes. But I was sitting in Lapland and I said to them, what’s on your mind? And this engineer from Nokia told me in Finnish what was on his mind. And I go, that sounds like a thing. What’s the real challenge here for you? And he explained it to me in Finnish. I go, great, what else? What else is a challenge here? And he would say a bit more and I go, great, anything else here is a challenge. And he would explain the other aspect of it. In Finnish I go great. So knowing that, what’s the real challenge here for you? And he would go, oh, well. And honestly, that. That already was revelatory to him. I had no idea what was the details of being said.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:33:18  I could tell that it was a real thing. I could tell he wasn’t playacting. I could tell we were having a real conversation. But I don’t need to know the details to be of service. And in some ways, that is one of these kind of counterintuitive insights around almost had a tame your advice monster, which is, the more you can realize how little you actually know about the person, about what’s really going on, about what’s really hard for them, about what the context really is. The more you can realize how unlikely it is that the advice you’ve got is the advice that they’re actually looking for. Before we hit the record button, we were talking about change, and we’re talking about your new book and this idea that when you realize how hard it is to change yourself, you should realize how minuscule, impossible it is to try and change somebody else, even if they want to be changed. You know, you have to allow that agency to stay with them.

Eric Zimmer 00:34:15  Yeah, that is all very good advice.

Eric Zimmer 00:34:19  Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:34:20  I spent ten years going. I get the irony of me giving advice on how not to give advice. Yeah.

Eric Zimmer 00:34:26  I’m sure you’ve gotten that before. But, you know, I want to go into a couple of paradoxes that you bring up that are about the coaching mindset or about being a coach. Yeah. The first one you say is be confident and be humble.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:34:43  Right. I think if there was a single lesson I’ve learned over the ten years of talking about the coaching habit and teaching the coaching habit, it’s this is the power of the being of a coach or the being of somebody being coach, like, versus the doing of it. Because the book, the first, you know, the first book is all about the doing of coaching. Here are seven questions. His ways of asking questions. This chapter is about the being of of coaching and how being a role model can be incredibly powerful. When people are working with you. Partly they’re there for the wisdom that you bring and the questions that you ask.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:35:21  Partly, they’re there for you. They see who you are as a as a man, as a human, as a person who’s had this life and had this journey. And you’re role modeling something for them in the way that you just you are in the world. When I think of the people who who are powerful role models, and I think you’re one of these people, Eric, they have this way of embodying a presence that they bring. And when I think about the self that they bring to the world, there’s this idea of this humble curiosity, I’m sorry, this humble confidence. What I mean by that is by humble I the metaphor I use is they’ve got their feet on the ground. You know, there’s actually a connection between humans, which is a word for ground. And this idea of humility, which is like when you’re humble, you’ve just got a kind of clear eye on the strengths and the weaknesses and the complexities and the messiness and the glory of you. I know the things that I’m really good at, and I know the things I’m not really good at, and I’m pretty grounded in that, and I’m pretty relaxed about that.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:36:32  I hold it lightly. And this humility allows people to be less brittle, less less vulnerable to what’s going on. In particular, I kind of imagine they’ve got not just their feet on the ground, but their toes in in the mud. They’re kind of they’re grounded like that literally and metaphorically. And the confidence is I kind of coming back to a sense of self-belief about the value of who you are and the value of what you do. You know, I sign my emails with the short phrase, which is you’re awesome and you’re doing great. And I kind of stumbled across it by accident. I was facilitating something, and in a moment of inspiration, I got people to look at each other and go, hey, now say to your partner, you’re awesome and you’re doing great. Super awkward. The first time the group had to do that, I think we’re in England, which only made it worse because that’s like not what they say in England. But I got them to do another 3 or 4 times over the hour and a half, and by the end they were like, you are awesome and you are doing great.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:37:33  And they were high fiving and some people were hugging and it was great. And there’s something in that phrase which is fundamentally, you know, you’re a person of value. Fundamentally you have. I’m trying not to be cheesy North American here. I’m trying to tap into a real sense of awe, which is like, fundamentally, it is amazing who you are, that you are alive in this moment, the miracle and the glory of it all. And you’re doing great. This as a recognition about whether it’s going well for you at the moment, or whether it’s going bad for you, you’re probably doing your best. You’re probably showing up with as much courage and as much fortitude and as much grit and all of those things as you’ve got. So keep going. You’re awesome and you’re doing great. And this idea of humble confidence is this kind of holding both of these things, which is like, man, I am a I’m a messy and flawed human being. I’m also awesome and I am doing great.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:38:30  And they are both true.

Eric Zimmer 00:38:32  100% humility is a big thing in AA because it’s in one of the steps. Yeah, humility is often thought of as thinking less of yourself, but the understanding I always got is the one that you use. It’s like kind of knowing my strengths and my weaknesses. And I actually find that that humility allows a certain kind of confidence also.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:38:55  I think so each other.

Eric Zimmer 00:38:56  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so I really like that one. Be light and be grounded.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:39:03  Let me tell you, if I made one just final thing around the humility piece. Just picking up on what you said, which is it can show up in kind of two ways that are slightly corrupted to to this meaning that you and I are talking about. One is the sense of effacement. You’ve got to belittle yourself. You’re like, you’re lesser than. And then there’s the whole humblebrag thing, which is like, oh, look how amazing I am. And I’ve just casually mentioned that.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:39:28  And those feel like slightly corrupted versions of, of this sense of humility, which is this kind of, understanding and comfort with the, the complexities that we, we have.

Eric Zimmer 00:39:40  Yeah. And I think you also said it in that just recognition. Everybody’s a mixed bag. We are a mixed bag. Exactly.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:39:48  It’s like we’ve got two wolves fighting, I imagine.

Eric Zimmer 00:39:51  Imagine. All right. Be light and be grounded.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:39:55  Yeah. If the humble confidence is about how you show up. Be light and be grounded. Feels to me like a way you manage process. You manage the way you show up and you do things in the world and particularly in coaching conversations. I remember going to a coaching conference many years ago and being really struck by the lack of humor in the room. There was just this kind of slight self-importance and dour ness and unwillingness to see the absurdity of it all, and also in kind of coaching and in these kind of interactions. There’s a way that things can feel and get a little abstract and highfalutin, and there’s something about the very best of process which feels like it is grounded in the moment.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:40:53  It is grounded in reality. It’s grounded in a practicality around. We’re trying to figure some stuff out so you can get some stuff done, and there’s a lightness to it, which is there is a playfulness and there is a humor and there is a kindness, and there’s a kind of crinkling of the eyes, which is like, even in the toughest time, the ability to have this kind of gift of lifting towards the light feels like it can be extremely powerful. And, you know, an ability to go or it doesn’t have to be all serious, and it doesn’t have to be all grinding it out and grit and getting things done. And it can’t be trivial and it can’t be just like, let’s crack another joke. But there’s this way of trying to navigating the way you interact with somebody, with both lightness and a sense of groundedness, can be really powerful.

Eric Zimmer 00:41:44  Speaking of lightness, this may be the least flamboyantly dressed I have ever seen you. That is true. Is there a wardrobe change for 26? Did I catch you on an off day? What’s going on?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:41:58  I think you kind of caught me on an off day.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:42:00  I think I feel like I’ve let myself down and I’ve let you down.

Eric Zimmer 00:42:03  Go change, go change.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:42:05  Actually, it’s like I’m not wearing any trousers. Does that help?

Eric Zimmer 00:42:08  That does help. It does help. Yeah, particularly for Joe in the engineering booth. He’s. He’s paying much closer attention. All right. Be fierce and be loving.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:42:19  Yeah. So I think of this as the paradox you bring to relationships with others. You know, I’m saying in a coaching conversation. But I’m really thinking of this in any relationship that you care deeply about. So this may be you as a parent or as a child of of parents or for your your closest to friends or for the people you have a coaching relationship with. You know, like how do you show up for this person? What’s the fullest expression of holding the relationships that they feel seen and heard and encouraged. And I think it starts with this kind of love, which is my job, is to want the very best for you. You need to know that I am on your side.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:43:07  I see you, who you are in all your complex messiness. And like my heart is full for that. You know, I heard a Tibetan nun once teaching from a stage saying, you know, when she moves, when she comes into a large room, when she’s on a stage, when she’s presenting, she tries to imagine her sense of love enveloping the entire room. So she’s holding everybody in that space, and I’m like, oh, I love that. I’m not that good at doing it, but I love that, that idea. So it’s like I am full in on this person, you know, even with all the things that I can see are complicated about them. You know, I’m unreservedly on their side. And then the fierceness comes from, If that is true, what needs to be said and done? So you show up with a degree of ferocity for the sake of love, to support them in a way. And it comes from my own. My own shit, really, which is around how often I have kind of whipped out or not stepped up to say the thing, to hold the thing up, to say the truth, to challenge because it felt too hard.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:44:25  And then I kind of convinced myself that actually the the being nice was actually the thing that they wanted from me. And having this sense of a ferocity for the sake of kindness and love allows you to be an extraordinary person in somebody’s life.

Eric Zimmer 00:44:43  Boy, this does seem like one of those paradox that is pretty, pretty challenging. Yeah, right. Because back to our thing before you know. Somebody may not want you to be fierce on their behalf.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:44:57  Right.

Eric Zimmer 00:44:59  In different relationships in my life, I have found that it’s a really tricky balance, because I do sort of I just have sort of a an improvement bent to my mind in general. I can always see like that could be better, that could be better, that could be better, which can translate into you could be better, you could be better, you could be better. And that can be helpful. Right. But it also, I know has made certain people in my life like, leave me the f alone. I mean, and I’m not even necessarily voicing all of that that much.

Eric Zimmer 00:45:35  Right? There’s a way I am that it’s some subtle disapproval, but it’s just this is a really interesting one for me, that I sort of am right in the middle of that paradox in general, in a lot of different ways.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:45:49  I agree. None of these paradoxes are easy to master. I think, and this idea of the fierce love and the fierceness in particular. Eric, one of the questions that I think can be helpful is for whose sake am I genuinely being fierce in this moment? It’s a great question in general with coaching or asking questions, because sometimes you can find yourself as a coach, formally or informally, asking questions that are more helpful for you than they are to the other person.

Eric Zimmer 00:46:23  I often mentioned such a thing often why?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:46:26  Questions are those who say, so why did you do that? And you’re like, what were you actually doing? Often at that moment is you’re trying to find out more data so that you can come up with a better solution to offer them an opinion.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:46:41  And actually, why questions are actually not often that helpful for people because, you know, A they’re ambiguous. They’re like, are you judging me? I you know, it’s like, why the hell did you do that? Are you just trying to find out data for you? Are you looking for justification? Why? You know, the why questions can be can be complicated. So this sense of fierceness, you know, I don’t think it translates into. So I’m just going to tell you every idea I’ve ever got for you to get better. That that explains your first seven failed marriages, Eric.

Eric Zimmer 00:47:16  It’s two, but okay.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:47:20  It is both in a sense of like, I’m saying this because of my love for you rather than my frustration with you. And, it’s really worth sitting with going, it’s like, am I saying it or not saying it? What’s what’s really going on here behind why I’m hesitating to say it or I am, I am saying it.

Eric Zimmer 00:47:40  That is a great question.

Eric Zimmer 00:47:42  Yeah. For whose sake?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:47:43  For whose sake? Yeah. And then. And then there’s also something in this kind of in some ways connects us to the final paradox, which is you’ve also got to not care what they do with this. If they’re like, let me give you this piece of fierce love. And now I’m expecting a change. That is part of the complication. But, you know that famous quote, around. Look, the secret to my happiness is I don’t I don’t mind what happens. It’s like, I’m going to give you this and I don’t mind what happens. You know, this is your life. You’re an adult. You get to to hear it or not hear it. You get to act on it or not act on it. But, you know, even as I say, all of these things, just to keep coming back to the point you’re really making, which is this is a tricky thing to navigate. It is absolutely a tricky thing to navigate.

Eric Zimmer 00:48:31  Yeah.

Eric Zimmer 00:48:31  And so is Karen. Don’t care. There’s that quote from Krishnamurti that you just mentioned. There’s one from the Third Great Patriarch of Zen, which is a fancy title. He probably had a name also, which is the way is simple for those who don’t have preferences. Something like that. And I’m like, okay, yes, 100%. I agree with you. Directionally, you’re spot on. And you know what? I’ve got a whole lot of them. No matter what I try to do, I’ve got preferences, I’ve got cares. And so this idea of caring and not caring is another one of these. I think these paradoxes here also could be called lifelong questions or lifelong pursuits, because I’m in the middle of it with the book. You and I have talked many times about this book and the marketing of it and what I expect out of it, and I care deeply. I mean, there are a few things outside of the people in my life that I’ve cared about more in some ways.

Eric Zimmer 00:49:32  Right. And I’ve got to disconnect from caring about what happens at a certain point with it. And that’s a really tricky that’s a really tricky thing. And and I think for me, one of the core challenges is that I recognize the deep wisdom in the Buddhist advice like that about clinging, craving. That’s what causes suffering. I get it, I see it clearly. Yeah. And it also seems that that actually you may have just you may have just unlocked the whole the whole game there. What I mean is that I always also feel like it’s very natural to have desire.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:50:13  It is.

Eric Zimmer 00:50:13  But this idea of care and not care is a subtler lens by which to look at desire versus good or bad.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:50:23  Yeah. I mean, like you perhaps like I’m ambitious for a bunch of things that I do. Like, I’ve got things that I would be thrilled if a new book or a new course or whatever happens to it happens to scale a height that I’ve set for it. And I keep trying to remember.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:50:45  So what I care about, therefore, is taking my best guess at what I can do to try and influence this, because I can’t control much of it. But I can, you know, do things and ask, be, be brave and try and pull some stuff off that increase the odds. And I can care deeply, you know, about the quality of the book I produce and the quality of the podcast I go on and all of that stuff, and I can notice myself caring about where my book is on Amazon, which is like, oh yeah, I do actually care about where it is on on Amazon, but I am just trying to hold that thing lightly because I’m like, you know, I’m doing all I can in the process and the outcome. It works or it doesn’t work or it kind of works and, you know, notice the the delight or the frustration or the sadness and try not to get overly entangled in it. But you know, all of this is like a lifetime of spiritual growth as much as it is about.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:51:53  Top tips on book marketing.

Eric Zimmer 00:51:55  So what is it like if you’re open to talking about it? Like you had the coaching habit a decade ago, sell a million and a half copies. Nothing you’ve done since has hit that level of commercial success. What’s it.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:52:09  Like? I think I’ve done since has hit 10% of that level of commercial success.

Eric Zimmer 00:52:14  So how do you work with that? Because obviously you know what’s possible on one level because it happened. Right? And so I’m kind of already like, well, God, who knows what’s going to happen. I mean, but you’ve had a success that’s really big. And then you’ve had since then, by any measure, you’re successful because you get to do what you do as a living, as a way of life. And how do you work with that?

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:52:39  Well, a few ways. One is, and this is a phrase you and I have talked about, is the phrase I’ve already won. And I’m like, man, I have already won.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:52:51  I’ve had this book that has given me financial freedom. I’ve been happily married for 30 some years. I have my physical health.

Eric Zimmer 00:53:00  For time guest on the one you feed.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:53:03  I should have led with that. I have two brothers that I really like and their families I really like. I got to be present with my dad when he was dying. I like my mom. I mean, I’ve just like I have crushed it. So when it’s like I have already won, the second is, or the, you know, the 4 or 5 books that I’ve written since then I am proud of as part of my body of work. So I’m like, look, I’ve created things that are that are that I think are great and helpful and useful. And, you know, partly my job is not to to try and replicate selling a million and a half. My job is to produce the best stuff I can to market it for a while as best I can, and then to let it go. And then part of it is just processing a bit of like, sadness and frustration.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:53:53  But I can’t figure out what the how the hell you sell book. Even though I accidentally did it once. You know, we’re doing this, for the The coaching habit launch. We’ve got this campaign. It’s inspired by a guy called Brandon Sanderson who did this thing called the Year of Sanderson in Covid. Not only did he write the four books that he was obliged contractually to write, but he wrote another four books, and then he launched it and did a Kickstarter. His Kickstarter raised $45 million, which is, like, ludicrous. It’s the most successful Kickstarter of all time. but he kind of did this Kickstarter campaign, so we’re doing a Kickstarter campaign around it, and I am quietly confident that I won’t be raising $45 million as part of this, but I am so delighted by the experience I have in creating these different levels. One of the levels we get to send people a box every quarter with a new little booklet I’m writing and some treats in it, and it’s trying to be present to the the joy and the fun of it.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:54:59  And I was talking to Jill, who is the person on my team leading this, and I was like, maybe I should be reaching out to this type of person and trying to get them interested in the book. And she’s like, you know, this whole campaign is for people who are already really for fans, who are already fans of the book to help them go deeper and, make new kind of connections around this. Our job is to be useful and have fun. That’s our job for this year. And so it’s really helpful for her to pull me back to remembering actually what this is about, which is to. To have fun and be useful. And that allows me to care deeply and care less about the fact that, you know, I got my my I got my book royalties statement the other day and the coaching habit in a quarter had sold, you know, a bunch made made a ton of money. Was excited. Really exciting to see that number. The most recent thing I published called To Do Something That Matters Journal had literally sold zero copies and had lost money.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:56:04  So I had the I had the whole spectrum and I was like, that’s fascinating. All both of these are true.

Eric Zimmer 00:56:10  I’ve remained disappointed that maybe it was your book before that one. How to Work with Almost Anyone? That is still a brilliant title that book should have sold. I don’t understand that because a it’s a great book, it’s a great title. And who doesn’t immediately read that title and be like, oh, I get that.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:56:32  Exactly. Of all the titles I’ve ever come up with, I thought that was the best title and I feel the same, which is like, oh, I really thought that was going to take off.

Eric Zimmer 00:56:40  I mean, the coaching habit, let’s be honest, that’s not a great title. I mean, it’s okay.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:56:44  It’s okay.

Eric Zimmer 00:56:45  It’s okay, it’s okay. How to work with almost anyone.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:56:48  I feel the same. But it just goes to show, which is like, you know, the coaching habit was the best title I came up with at the time, and it’s worked.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:56:58  Yeah, there’s other stuff. I look at titles on it. That was a good title. That’s not a that’s a less good title. Yeah, but I thought how to work with almost anyone was. It was a stonking really good title. I really thought it was going to take off and it’s sold pretty well, but it hasn’t, it hasn’t come close to the coaching habit.

Eric Zimmer 00:57:13  Well, that’s pretty high. Yeah. Pretty rare error. Yeah. I mean what is it like? You know, probably like one tenth of 1% of all books ever sell that much or less.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:57:23  It’s smaller than that. Yeah, yeah. Something I realized the other day, which is like I’m currently basically a one hit wonder. And you know what’s great about that? I’ve had a hit.

Eric Zimmer 00:57:35  Yeah. Yeah, but.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:57:36  That’s some like, the alternative is being a no hit wonder. And that’s the more likely outcome. So being a one hit wonder is a mark of pride for me.

Eric Zimmer 00:57:45  Before you check out.

Eric Zimmer 00:57:46  Pick one insight from today and ask, how will I practice this before bedtime? Need help turning ideas into action? My free weekly Bites of Wisdom email lands every Wednesday with simple practices, reflection and links to former guests who can guide you even on the tough stuff like anxiety, purpose and habit change. Feed your good wolf at one you feed your net newsletter again one you feed net letter people who’ve had a big hit. It’s a big deal. Yeah, right. Yeah. And some of those one hit wonders and which I will throw you into the category of, have produced a lot of great work around it. Dexys Midnight Runners are a great example. Come on Eileen. Classic. Huge. I mean, that guy could probably retire 30 generations of his family off of that song.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:58:37  Exactly.

Eric Zimmer 00:58:38  Never had anything else that even got close.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:58:41  Exactly.

Eric Zimmer 00:58:41  And yet the rest of that record and the record before it are genius, right? They are so good. Oh, as an example, as an example.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:58:52  Fun fact my friend Kate lives on the street where they filmed the video for for Come On Eileen.

Eric Zimmer 00:58:59  Here’s another fun fact about a hit. Take on me a massive signal. Who doesn’t love the sweet? Yeah. That song. It’s sort of like the coaching habit. Like they rewrote that thing, like, eight times. Yeah. I mean, they just kept working on that. Yeah, yeah. It was in Song Exploder. I think you hear the first version. Exactly. And you hear the the one at the end. You’re like, I.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:59:20  Heard that podcast as well. I thought it was so good, which is like, oh no, we launched it and it crickets. And then we launched it again in crickets. And then we launched it a fourth time and it took off and became nuts.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:30  Yeah. I found that really inspiring. It just sort of the like, you just don’t know, keep working on what you work on. They loved the song. They cared about the song.

Eric Zimmer 00:59:40  They thought it was good. They kept trying. Yeah. Now, again, for every one of those, there’s a hundred stories of, like, I kept working on the same song and it sucked to begin with, and it sucked at the end, or even.

Michael Bungay Stanier 00:59:51  Even it didn’t suck. But there’s just no way you didn’t find your audience for it. Because, you know, coaching habits, success. It’s a really good book. The fact that I had to rewrite it six times for this publisher made it an even better book. It landed at the right time. Just that weird coaching. It’s very readable. It’s a really short book, and it has a lot of word of mouth that can explain some of its success. But the magic fairy dust. Yeah. They’ve got Supreme Court on it is really what’s amazing. And you can’t replicate that. You just got to get lucky.

Eric Zimmer 01:00:23  To more magic fairy dust for all of us.

Michael Bungay Stanier 01:00:25  I agree with that.

Eric Zimmer 01:00:26  Thank you. Michael. It’s always a pleasure, Eric.

Michael Bungay Stanier 01:00:29  This has been great.

Eric Zimmer 01:00:30  I expect a slightly upscale sartorial approach next time we talk.

Michael Bungay Stanier 01:00:35  Exactly. well, I’ll see you in ten years for the 20 20th edition of The Coaching Habit.

Eric Zimmer 01:00:40  Yeah, exactly.

Michael Bungay Stanier 01:00:41  And celebrating the 10th year edition of yours.

Eric Zimmer 01:00:44  Oh, yeah. That will be ten years or exactly ten years apart. Interesting. All right. That’s good. I like that. I like that symmetry.

Michael Bungay Stanier 01:00:51  Thanks, Eric.

Eric Zimmer 01:00:52  Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I’d love for you to share it with a friend. Share it from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don’t have a big budget, and I’m certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better. And that’s you just hit the share button on your podcast app, or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community.