In this episode, Scott Barry Kaufman challenges us to go from asking ourselves “Why Me?” to “What Now?” as he unpacks a new approach to pain and growth. Scott explains how the real work happens in the messy middle as we unpack the dangers of black and white thinking, and why genuine change isn’t about a single epiphany, but a thousand small choices. If you’ve ever wondered how to hold your suffering without letting it define you, or how to spot the agency that you still have, this episode is for you.
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Key Takeaways:
- The concept of a victim mindset and its impact on personal growth.
- The importance of personal agency and empowerment in overcoming challenges.
- The balance between acknowledging suffering and recognizing potential for growth.
- The role of emotions and cognitive distortions in shaping our mindset.
- Techniques for emotional regulation and reframing negative thoughts.
- The significance of self-compassion and its role in personal development.
- The dangers of black-and-white thinking and the need for nuanced perspectives.
- The relationship between trauma, identity, and self-worth.
- The process of post-traumatic growth and healing from past experiences.
- Listener questions addressing limiting beliefs and the fear of the unknown.
Scott Barry Kaufman, Ph.D., is a cognitive psychologist who is among the top one percent most cited scientists in the world for his groundbreaking research on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. He is the host of The Psychology Podcast, which has received more than 30 million downloads and is frequently ranked the #1 psychology podcast in the world. Dr. Kaufman’s writing has appeared in The Atlantic, Scientific American, Psychology Today, and Harvard Business Review, and he is the author of ten previous books, including Transcend, Wired to Create, and Ungifted.
Connect with Scott Barry Kaufman Website | Instagram | Facebook | X | LinkedIn
If you enjoyed this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, check out these other episodes:
Tasha Eurich on Growing Self-Awareness
How to Choose Growth with Scott Barry Kaufman & Jordyn Feingold
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Episode Transcript:
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:00:00 Just like you’re challenging your emotions, challenge your cognitive distortions. You know, what’s the worst thing that could happen? What’s the best thing that could happen? What’s the most realistic thing that’s probably going to happen from this situation and work with the reality the most probabilistic.
Chris Forbes 00:00:22 Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf.
Eric Zimmer 00:01:07 These days, it’s easy to feel pulled to extremes. We’re told to bare our wounds or to just move on, to blame the world or blame ourselves. But the real work happens in the messy middle, in the nuance. As Scott Barry Kaufman says. That doesn’t trend. In this episode, Scott and I talk about his new book, Rise Above, and the power and the cost of identifying with our pain. I’ll share what I learned in recovery, how facing the truth of my addiction and my gloomy temperament was the start, not the end of growth. Together, we unpack the dangers of black and white thinking, and why genuine change isn’t about a single epiphany, but a thousand small choices. If you’ve ever wondered how to hold your suffering without letting it define you, or how to spot the agency that you still have. Then this episode is for you. I’m Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed and listeners stick around in this episode because Scott and I are going to try out something new where we are going to take actual listener questions, and we’re going to attempt to answer them.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:20 And the questions we took were around old limiting beliefs, which I think fits in very well with Scott’s book. So we’re going to get to that later in the episode. Scott, welcome back to the show.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:02:33 Oh, Eric, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:35 Indeed it is. I feel the same way. We’re going to be discussing your latest book, which is called Rise Above Overcoming a Victim Mindset. Empower yourself and Realize Your Full Potential. But before we get into that, we will start in the way that we always do, which is with the parable. And in the parable, there’s a grandparent who’s talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:20 So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:03:26 Yeah. I’d be curious to see how I answered that the last time I was on your show. But in any intervening period, I think I’ve really learned a lot about the benefits of not ignoring your I’m going to call them your beautiful monsters. so the idea of feeding is different than accepting. Not feeding doesn’t mean that you escape the sides of yourself, that you’re scared about yourself either, or that you, constantly, you know, put it away from your consciousness. it means that it’s where you’re put your attention. It’s where you put your daily, strivings. And it’s much better to feed your higher self on a regular basis. But I just don’t think that this parable means that you shun from the consciousness kingdom. anything that, you don’t like about yourself.
Eric Zimmer 00:04:18 Yeah. I think this is interesting. As we get into the structure of your book in a minute, you’ve got things like, don’t be a victim of your emotions, don’t be a victim of your cognitive distortions, of your self-esteem, of your need to please others.
Eric Zimmer 00:04:31 And I think that that idea for me sort of resonates, which is that when we talk about the bad wolf, the way the parable is structured isn’t I mean, it’s a it’s an old story. So it doesn’t have modern psychological insight into it. But I think it’s kind of to me, it’s like, don’t ignore the fact that you feel anger or greed or those are all normal things. And don’t let them run the show. Don’t let them take over the whole thing. And that’s what a lot of this book is about. But I want to start with the phrase in the title about a victim mindset. Why is that what you wanted to take on with this book?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:05:17 I originally wanted to write a book about vulnerable narcissism and the ways that it holds us back in life from our self-actualization. the way is that, feeling entitled to special things because of our suffering really does cause us to not see our own potential and give us a sense of agency. My publishers didn’t think that people would buy a book about discovering the narcissism within themselves.
Eric Zimmer 00:05:45 Probably not. Probably not. I think they might have been on spot on with that idea.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:05:50 Yeah. Most bestselling books are about, Well, let’s find someone else to blame for all your problems. You know, like, It’s not you. It’s your ex-boyfriend’s fault, you know, or your mother’s fault. And I just think that that mentality in and of itself is what’s holding you back. Ironically, even though so many self-help books are perpetuating that a victim mindset, even the trauma keeps the score, I think perpetuates a victim mindset. so I, you know, just thinking that through and having that insight, I was like, oh, I can write a book here about about a mindset that we all can have. And throughout the course of our day, we can go back and forth in this mindset sometimes. it’s a, it’s a, it’s a very dynamic mindset that, to the extent to which you can recognize it in yourself, you can actually have more agency than you realized about your life.
Eric Zimmer 00:06:48 Yeah, I think we’ve seen and you talk about it in this book. We’ve seen some good things happen culturally, where trauma is more talked about, where mental illness is more talked about, where things like addictions are less stigmatized than they once were, all of which I think is good. And I have a feeling similar to the one that you talk about in this book that in certain cases we have overcorrected for that.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:07:18 Yeah, I think we have. I think we have. I think me and you are probably on the same page about the the value of vulnerability, the value of people sharing their pain and, and people listening to other people’s pain. you know, we weren’t really getting it right before, you know, either with, with especially, you know, men shutting down their emotions, not opening up and, and women not talking about their experiences of, of real harassment, you know, an abuse. So I think all these things are are a step in the right direction. But then you get to this point where the vulnerability itself starts to be treated as though it’s the end goal.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:08:03 And I don’t want people to lose sight of what the larger goal really is. It’s not to just end with telling people what happened and getting the attention for the pain and suffering. It’s to overcome it. It’s to have a it’s to have a brighter future. and, you know, in a lot of ways, I just felt like that message was getting lost in our society.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:29 Yeah, this is really nuanced territory. And nuanced territory is difficult because it doesn’t trend well. The algorithms don’t like nuance particularly. Right.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:08:40 You like it, Eric. You like.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:41 It. It’s my whole brand, Scott. It’s my whole brand.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:08:44 That’s why we get along.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:45 Exactly. So I think that what we’re dealing with here, and when we talk about a victim mindset, there are different types of things that we might consider. First, before we go into this, talk to me about the difference between being a victim and having a victim mindset.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:09:00 Well, you can have been victimized. You can have had experienced a very challenging life situation without being traumatized by it.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:09:09 You can be a victim without having a victim mindset. as well, you can also have not been a victim and also have a victim mindset.
Eric Zimmer 00:09:19 So I know.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:09:21 Yeah. And what I really take on in this book is a perpetual victim mindset. So that might be important to differentiate as well. I’m not talking about a one incident where you, complain about and a terrible thing happened to you I’m telling you about, you have a way of being where you take everything personally. You overgeneralize things in your life. You see threat even in completely neutral stimuli. You know, like you have it convinced the world’s against you, and, and, and you’ve been wronged by everyone. So I’m taking on a very specific mindset. That is, no matter who you are or what you’ve been through in your life, it’s going to hold you back from realizing your full potential.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:07 So the easy criticism would be, Scott, you are a straight white man, well-educated. It’s easy for you to say, but there are a lot of people in this world that that have it much harder than you do, or, you know, there are.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:24 I think we can all look at our society and see ways in which it is unequal, and it is unfair. How do you wrap that into this conversation?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:10:33 Are you playing devil’s advocate or do you do you believe that what you just said.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:36 I do believe it, actually. Ultimately, my position is that things happen to some of us that are really shitty. They just do. And some of those things are one off experiences, like you’re abused by your father or you’re raped or you you see a killing. Others are more systematic in the way that we treat certain groups of people. So I believe all that to be true. And I believe that even though it’s not quote unquote, our fault, our lives are our responsibility. Nobody else is going to come in and lead them or live them for us. So if we don’t have some degree of responsibility in our own growth, outcomes, mentality mindset, then we’re only seeing the what happened to me side of the coin. We’re not seeing the I have agency side of the coin.
Eric Zimmer 00:11:32 And as I am with most things, I think you have to see the whole picture to have a to to live a life that is the best it can be. So I’m not entirely playing devil’s advocate, because I think many people listening to this show will legitimately feel kind of what I just said there.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:11:50 Well, so do you think it matters that, on the outside, it seems like some people have had harder experiences than others? Do you think that matters, that that matters at all for the argument I’m trying to make?
Eric Zimmer 00:12:04 I think for the argument you’re trying to make in its nuance. No, I’m trying to address what might cause a lot of people to disengage from this message early on. Right. A lot of people who would legitimately say, well, you know, that’s easy to say, but because one of the criticisms of the self-help movement and the modern psychology movement, and I think it has some truth in it, is that we attribute to the individual everything where our lives are more complex than who we are inside they.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:39 I think we co-create our reality. Right. And there is real external reality that causes, you know, things to be different. I mean, I can look in my own life. You know, I at at 24, I had 50 years of jail time hanging over my head as a heroin addict, and I didn’t do a day. I did one night in jail. I didn’t do any more than that. And a lot of that was because I was an upper class white man. Like, I believe that very strongly. Like that’s true, right? And had I gone to jail, which I think a lot of people would have in my circumstances, I just got lucky. I was given an opportunity that I then had to live my way into. Right. Yeah. It’s not like I just let off scot free. I had to go through probation. I had to do. I had to do a bunch of shit and I messed that up. I would have been in real trouble, but I was given an opportunity.
Eric Zimmer 00:13:31 And so other people might not be given that opportunity, and. And that matters.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:13:37 Interesting.
Eric Zimmer 00:13:38 Yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:13:39 Well, well, I appreciate your perspective, and I, I view you as someone who doesn’t have a victim mindset, even though you rightfully could have. you’ve been through a lot, man. You’ve, And you and you really have this empowering way of being, it doesn’t matter that other people, may have had it tougher than you. Given your circumstances, does that matter at all for the empowering mindset you developed? That’s, I guess, my question I’m asking.
Eric Zimmer 00:14:15 Yeah. Well, I think again, it’s for me, it’s walking an interesting line. And that interesting line is to be able to say, yes, there are reasons that I am the way I am. There’s reasons that at 25 I was a homeless heroin addict, and a lot of those reasons have to do with me when I was younger. At least that’s that’s the prominent theory, right? So what I sort of had to learn, and for some reason, I at least the 12 step programs and the people I was around did a really good job of modeling this, which was, yes, you are kind of screwed up and there might be a reason that you’re kind of screwed up.
Eric Zimmer 00:14:50 It could be genetic, it could be environmental, it could be. And you know what? You need to acknowledge that that’s real. But then you also have to you’re the only one that can get better. And so for me, it’s always been that. How do I do both those things? How do I say, well, indeed. Like I just have a temperament that would make Leonard Cohen proud, right? Like it’s just my nature, right? So it’s I’m just I have to have a more gloomy outlook. I don’t know where I got it, the way I was raised from my genetics, whatever. So I can acknowledge that and recognize that for me, perhaps day to day happiness is more challenging than some people. And it’s my temperament. I’m the only one that can do anything with it. So I’m acknowledging that both. Indeed, this is true and real, and I have a lot of agency within that.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:15:42 Well, that’s the main message of my book. Is that an empowerment mindset is it plays.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:15:48 Yes. And. You know, like improv games. Yes. And where and I also call it honest love because I didn’t feel like either extreme the pull yourself. So there’s the pull yourself up by the bootstraps crowd, which I think is what you’re kind of hinting at in your criticism, even though. Yeah. that’s not me.
Eric Zimmer 00:16:05 That’s. No, of course not. Yeah, I know you. I know, but but I want listeners to hear your message.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:16:10 Sure, I appreciate that. No, I appreciate that. And then the other, the exact other end is, is the coddling end that I kind of take on a little bit of my book as well, which is, you know, oh, a horrible thing happened to you. Therefore there’s no responsibility you have to take for your life. And, and, you know, it’s okay. You know, it doesn’t matter how you show up in the world anymore. You know, you can blame it on. Yeah. That bad thing to happen to you.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:16:33 And, to me, honest love is is validating someone’s real experience, and showing them that empathy The air as at its base, but the honesty part is also being able to see the higher their higher potential, even if they don’t see it. Yes. It’s it’s it’s playing. Yes. And it’s like, yes, a terrible thing happened to you and you got this, you know, you have much more reservoirs of resiliency than you realize. so I really love that. I’m not a big fan of, assuming things about people’s lives based on their skin color. So, I mean, we might disagree on this. I don’t know, but, I’m not I’m not one to make assumptions. If I know someone’s white and straight, I don’t assume they’ve had a life that’s easier than someone who’s not white and not straight. All else being equal. so I just don’t view the world that way. So I guess that was my that why I asked you all these questions up front? Because I really want to understand your own perspective. It might. It might differ from mine.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:00 Check in for a moment. Is your jaw tight? Breath shallow. Are your shoulders creeping up? Those little signals are invitations to slow down and listen. Every Wednesday, I send weekly bites of wisdom. A short email that turns the big ideas we explore here in each show. Things like mental health, anxiety, relationships, purpose into bite sized practices you can use the same day. It’s free. It takes about a minute to read, and thousands already swear by it. If you’d like extra fuel for the weekend, you also get a weekend podcast playlist. Join us at oneyoufeed.net/newsletter. That’s oneyoufeed.net/newsletter and start receiving your next bite of wisdom. All right. Back to the show.
I think what’s interesting when we talk about this idea of privilege, what I heard about this thing once that people did and I thought this was a really interesting idea, which was you could take people and have them line up and, you know, for each good thing that sort of occurred.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:19:07 It’s called the privilege walk. For each good thing, I don’t like the privilege walk.
Eric Zimmer 00:19:12 Okay. Why? Why? Well, let’s first explain what it is. So. So if you had a supporting parent, you would take a step forward. If you were if you were in a childhood abuse situation, you would take a step back. And what I like, what I like about it is that what it does is sort of what you’re saying. It’s saying that, well, skin, let’s just take skin color. It’s an it’s part of an identity. It is one of the things that influences who you are in the world. But there are a lot of others. And the privilege walk to me starts to try and show and balance out that who we are is. From if I were to use Buddhist terms, countless causes and conditions, right. Whereas I think. Where people get into a victim mindset is they think everything is about one condition and that’s not reality to me.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:20:05 I see what you’re saying.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:20:07 a big part of my book is, is trying to make clear as well, that I just don’t view suffering as a competition. And I think we really need to have care and concern for each other, each other’s suffering without making it a competition. Yeah. Like, I feel like, you know, when we have kids do the privilege walk, we are almost embarrassing. like people who didn’t suffer in one of the ways in which we have deemed as counting, as suffering. Yeah. I mean, there’s so many other dimensions that aren’t being put on the table. there in the privileged walk. It’s just whatever this teacher has decided they’re going to to consider as the most important sources of human suffering. So I have some philosophical issues with it. You know, in that way, I would rather instead of I would rather instead of kids showing a hierarchy of suffering we do have just stand up. If you’ve just stand up, if you’ve experienced a stand up or just like, you know, it’s knowledge.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:21:10 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Acknowledge each other’s suffering without making it a hierarchy.
Eric Zimmer 00:21:15 Yeah. Okay. I don’t want to get bogged down in this. I don’t want to get bogged down in this. I want to read something that you wrote, though, because this is the this is the the heart of it for me. And it’s it’s really well said. And you said we, we live in a time where some of us identify so strongly with our victimhood that our potential has taken a backseat seat to our pain. And that, I think, is beautifully said, because that’s what we’re talking about, is that we all have potential. And one of my strongest beliefs in life is that everyone, no matter where you are or what has happened, any of that, there is a positive step you can take. It’d be like somebody saying to me, like, Eric, you could play in the NBA if you just know I can’t write, but I could get better at basketball. And and I believe that’s true for everyone.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:05 And when we only focus on our pain or our disadvantages, then, like you said, our potential sits in the back seat. And I think that’s the heart of the message of the book and why I think the book is ultimately beautiful and empowering.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:22:19 Thank you that that is a very, very key message of the book. And I think that no matter who you are, when we focus on our victimization to the exclusion of trying to identify the parts of ourselves that are not broken. We really do hold ourselves back from a more productive and positive future for ourselves. I mean, ultimately, what I want is for people to have a wonderful rest of their life, not live being stuck in their past as though it’s a prison.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:55 Yep. Okay, good. So let’s move into the solution part of your book, because that’s what the book is intended to be. It’s intended to be solution oriented. And as I said in the beginning, you talk about not being a victim of your emotions, of your cognitive distortions, of your self-esteem, or of your need to please.
Eric Zimmer 00:23:13 Let’s start with emotions. What does it mean not to be a victim of your emotions?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:23:18 Yeah, I think that a lot of times when we think about becoming a victim to something, we think about becoming victim to external circumstances in a way that’s not what my book is about. My book is about all the ways you are victim to your own self, and you’re holding your own self back. And I think that you hold yourself back with your emotions when you treat them as as though they’re facts and and you don’t create any sort of distance between yourself and your emotions, where you don’t, just view them as a sign. They’re just signposts. sometimes they’re telling us valuable information, sometimes they’re not. Sometimes they overreact. Sometimes our emotions are very primitive and overreact and are not in line with the reality at all. And the great thing is, there are so many emotional regulation techniques and forms of meditation and things you can do that allows you to take a step back and engage with your emotions differently, even the sides of yourself that you’re scared of.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:24:18 you know, you can create a handshake between yourself and your beautiful monsters in a way that they don’t scare you so much. but you just don’t give them free rein to do whatever they want with the rest of the personality structure. You do set some boundaries with your quote, dark side, but your dark side is not so scary. so changing your relationship, you have to your emotions, I think, can be one way of not being a victim to your emotions.
Eric Zimmer 00:24:43 You have an idea in this. It repeats in different parts of the book, but I really like it, which is asking what questions rather than why questions when we’re facing difficult emotions. Talk to me about what that means.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:24:56 Yeah, that’s I take that from my friend Tara York. have you had Tasha Yurek? Have you had her on your podcast?
Eric Zimmer 00:25:04 Yeah, it was a long time ago, though. But yes, we did have her on. She’s really good.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:25:08 Yeah, she’s really good. She talks about the difference between what questions and why questions.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:25:14 when we constantly ask why about a situation.
Speaker 4 00:25:18 Why God.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:25:21 That’s from. That’s what musical is that from Miss Saigon.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:24 You’re asking the wrong guy to name a musical.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:25:29 it’s.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:29 I’d like you to do the rest of this interview.
Speaker 4 00:25:32 I’m all through here. On my way. And da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:44 I think our engineer Joe is now feeling victimized by what you just did. Scott.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:25:52 I’m sorry. Joe. I’m sorry. I used to. I used to train you to get back into it. I like it. Thanks, thanks. Yeah. When we. When we just, like, kind of curse the gods for things not going our way. It’s not as productive as asking what questions? Like, what am I feeling right now? What can I do in this moment to get out of this situation? What? You know. Well, just those two are great. Are great things. Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:22 Yeah. I mean, another one that I love is what would the best version of myself do right now?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:26:27 That’s a really good question.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:26:28 See, what you’re doing is you’re starting to ask yourself powerful coaching questions.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:32 Yeah, exactly.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:26:32 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a really good one that you just said. What would my highest self do? and there are so many ways that you’re not being productive. You’re making bad a bad situation even worse.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:45 Yeah. As as listeners have heard me joke often, if I. Sometimes I feel like if I was to truly market what I offer people, like, just straight up, I’d be like, I’ll teach you how to not make things worse. Which, again, isn’t really going to sell. And yet, when we deeply understand how much we many of us make things worse, you’re like, oh, that’s actually that’s actually a pretty useful skill.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:27:07 Yeah. and I think some of that is, is getting your ego out of the way, getting, you know, being just open to growth, open to wanting to learn what is the most productive option. you don’t want to be defensive.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:27:20 You know, when, when someone’s telling you that your thought patterns are are not serving anyone. you don’t want to get defensive about that. You want to lean into, Well, let me try a different way of being, because this is clearly not working for me.
Eric Zimmer 00:27:34 Okay, so emotions, like you said, there’s a there’s a number throughout the book. You give a lot of different techniques and approaches to work, work with each of these things. And we’re not going to have time to go into those. I think the what versus why was just one that I wanted to kind of hit. Let’s talk about cognitive distortions. What are some cognitive distortions that most leave us stuck in a victim mindset?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:28:04 That’s a great one because we can become we really become a victim to our own cognitive distortions when we take those things at face value as well. You know, when a situation happens and then we start spiraling downward, we think, oh, this person didn’t smile at us, smile at me. They must hate me.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:28:24 then that suddenly becomes, oh my gosh, everyone hates me. Yeah. I’m unlovable. And then I’m worthless. And let’s end it. Oh my gosh, all that from just one person. Not smiling at you. Like, hold on, partner. Don’t become a victim to those thoughts. Don’t take them at face value. Challenge your cognitive. Just like you’re challenging your emotions. Challenge your cognitive distortions. And you know what’s the worst thing that could happen? What’s the best thing that could happen? What’s the most realistic thing that’s probably going to happen from this situation. You know, and and work with the reality of the most probabilistic thing here that they had a bad day or that they didn’t like me, you know. that, that they weren’t even thinking about me. That’s probably a lot for a lot of us. Being hated is far more what we want to be the case than being ignored. But. Right. More often than not, we’re just being ignored.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:21 Yes. I mean, not in any sort of malicious way.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:24 It’s because we are all very oriented on ourselves, right? We only have so much energy that we we can turn towards others. Yeah. You talk about a few different cognitive distortions here. I do. Attribution of hurtful behavior. Say more about that. I think you call it assuming negative intent.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:29:43 That is very much related to just seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli. It’s a very nerdy way of saying that often things that are ambiguous are just that. They are ambiguous. We have to get more comfortable in the uncertainty of life and the uncertainty of what people are thinking of you, as opposed to just seeing it in either they like me or they don’t like me terms, or in it’s either good or bad terms. it’s we we really fall prey to a victim mindset when we immediately think there’s a malevolent intent. Tent when someone is not giving us feedback that, that we can clearly understand.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:32 I think with cognitive distortions, so much of what you’ve just hinted at and you talk about in the book that’s so valuable is trying to see the nuance, and you talk about some very common cognitive distortions, like black and white thinking, you know, when it comes to cognitive distortions, one of my, you know, back to like coaching questions, one of my favorites is what am I making this mean? And you know, because that’s that’s what we’re doing.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:58 But then following on is like what is the most useful meaning if I’m making it up, what’s useful, you know, like what thing is going to empower me to, you know, what thing is going to allow me to give me a better chance of reaching and realizing my potential? Once I see that, I really don’t know that I’m making it up, then it does become a question of, well, okay, how do I want to categorize this thing? That’s just such a useful skill.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:31:26 It’s a very useful skill. I think we have to be very careful about what we classify as an injustice towards ourselves. People with a victim mindset see everything as an injustice towards themselves. Yep. I mean, in the extreme example, we’re talking about the stereotypical narcissist where everything is an injury.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:02 I think what was interesting is I was reading your book was and you do a nice job of this, of basically pointing out that all of us, when it comes to some of these things, love to be like, I know someone who’s just like that, you know, so I can look at the victim mindset and be like, oh, I believe me, I’ve got one person that like, if we were going to award a Hall of Fame, I put him in there.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:24 The much more interesting question, though, and the much more useful question, is what aspects of my life, where in my life might I still have that even if I don’t think it defines me across the board? Where might I still have it?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:32:40 Yeah, I’d love to hear more. More from your own brain about that. Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:46 well, I think some of it is I sort of hit a little of it there with like, depression and my my temperament. Right. Like, I have to be careful. There’s this line that I try and walk, which is I don’t want to define myself that way.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:33:04 Exactly.
Eric Zimmer 00:33:05 And I want to acknowledge that sometimes I am that way, or I behave that way, or I feel that way, you know. And so for me, some of it is trying to figure out, let’s say, with depression or low mood, when to simply go. That’s that’s just how you feel. No big deal. Move on. And when to say okay, you you might be able to do better here.
Eric Zimmer 00:33:34 You might be able to shift this. And I think that’s a that for me that gets very nuanced when with this thing that has been a you know, call it what did you say your demons or your monsters. Right. Mine. Beautiful monster called beautiful monster. And I recognize the beautiful part of my monster. And sometimes it still feels like a monster. When do I just go? All right, monster, take a seat. No big deal. I’m used to you. And when do I go? All right, hang on. Monster. Like, we’re not like we’re going to think differently about this today or we’re going, you know, and. And so for me, I think that that is where the nuance comes in, in recognizing when my diagnoses, quote unquote diagnoses or thoughts about my temperament when they sort of allow me to accept myself better and when they become limiting for me. And I don’t always know.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:34:30 Man, I don’t think there’s a formula there, right?
Eric Zimmer 00:34:34 I’ve been looking for one by interviewing people like you for over a decade for that formula, and I think I’ve realised it doesn’t exist.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:34:42 No formula. But I do think there’s a value in having a side of yourself that can come online at any moment, that is there to remind the others, the other parts of you, that there’s a higher potential to you. I don’t think spiraling downward is ever the way. Under any circumstance.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:03 Yeah, I agree. One of the ways that I spiral downward is when I start going, it shouldn’t be this way. I shouldn’t feel this way. Should that. That’s my downward spiral, which is where for me, that’s the time I go, okay, monster, you’re here. No big deal. Like, let’s not get all wrapped around the axle on this. And so, yeah, for me, I feel like that’s the formula that I’m always living my way into, kind of on a pretty regular basis.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:35:32 Yeah, I really love it. And I’m really I’m enjoying this. This conversation is really kind of like a 50 over 50 conversation. Yeah. Because, I mean, you’re you’re.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:43 A good interviewer, apparently.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:35:44 Oh.
Speaker 5 00:35:44 Thank you.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:35:46 Well, well, what’s interesting to me is, is. And I wanted to learn about your own way of thinking, because you could have been easily, a case study in my book. You easily could have been, you know, how does someone decide to not have a victim mindset? after just being through so much? I would never downplay your suffering in light of knowing that you’re white or in light of I. I just I wouldn’t downplay anyone suffering. You know, and I certainly wouldn’t with you. It’s as it’s as legitimate as anyone else is suffering. So I just wonder how you, continually rise above because I feel like it’s a process for you where you’re. It’s not, like, automatic, like. And you’re forever. You’re forever transcended. I don’t, I mean, I imagine you have really shitty days, right? And then, you know, the next day you feel like you’ve moved three steps forward, you know, and then the next day, maybe you feel like you’ve regressed, but it’s a constant process, right? Am I right? I don’t know, I want to know more about your process.
Eric Zimmer 00:36:55 I mean, I think it depends what we’re talking about. If we’re talking about the suffering of addiction, that feels largely in the rear view mirror for me.
Speaker 5 00:37:03 Wow.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:04 Meaning? But, I mean, I’ve been I’ve been sober this time around for like, 17 years. Right. So. So for me, it’s not something that I struggle with.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:37:17 I struggle with daily that thing.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:19 And I think one of the things that I’ve just gotten better at over the years is not spiralling with things. So for me, the main one, if I, if I had to name like the main thing would be some of this is like as a former addict, I guess the one way in which I still may wrestle with it is like anything short of euphoria. I’m like, that’s not good enough. Right. So so some of that I would say that still continues. And that gets into some of the oh, is it a low mood? Is it a normal mood like I don’t, I don’t know.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:54 So I know I don’t suffer anywhere like I used to back in as an addict, even in my 30s or my, you know, my early 40s. I don’t think I do.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:38:05 Can we pause on that for a second? Because that’s really profound. There’s research showing that if you ask people in the grips of their, being tempted by their addiction. They report. There’s no hope. There’s no way in their lives they will ever not be addicted to this thing. And then you ask people, you know, just three years out, you know, for years. They’re like, I don’t even consider this a problem or issue in my life. So I think it’s just something really profound is like, again, don’t be a victim to your in the moment, helpless thoughts.
Eric Zimmer 00:38:44 Yes. I mean, that is I mean, I think that is the biggest piece of hope you can give somebody dealing with any sort of addiction. Because when you’re in the grips of it, the being torn apart inside is how I call it.
Eric Zimmer 00:38:57 Because you know that you shouldn’t. I mean, by the time you’re later in your addiction, you know very clearly this is a bad idea. I’m not saying like it’s internalized at that point. And yet there’s another part of you screaming, I’ve got to do it. And that tension is so unbearable that when people think about being sober, they think that that means living with that tension, and nobody can live with that tension for too long. I don’t think it’s too miserable. Right? Yeah. So the hope in addiction that I always say to people is, believe it or not, and I know you don’t believe it right now because I didn’t believe it. I couldn’t see it. I couldn’t understand it. Is that this thing that inattention will resolve if you can actually just somehow get some period of time in sobriety and you can do some of the work that we talk about doing, you will hit a point where you do not feel torn apart like this.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:39:57 Exactly.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:58 And to me, that torn apart is the worst feeling there is that I know it’s it’s maybe it’s why I ended up doing a parable about a good wolf and a bad wolf is because, yeah, that inner tearing apart is the worst feeling.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:40:12 I know it’s terrible And it’s. It’s related to, just the feeling of anything that feels compulsive versus freely chosen. Yes.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:23 Absolutely.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:40:24 I mean, that’s what it is, is there’s, you know, you know, there’s a higher self at the same time that you feel helpless to access it.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:34 Yeah. I mean, so much of the book that I, I just wrote and will be coming out in a year. It’s not about it’s not about addiction, but it is about this. How do we operate from that higher version of ourselves?
Speaker 5 00:40:51 I can’t wait to read this book. Wow.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:52 Yeah. I hope it’s, you know, I hope we’ll see. You know.
Speaker 5 00:40:56 Is.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:40:56 It gonna be called the one you feed?
Eric Zimmer 00:40:59 No. Right now it’s called how a little becomes a lot. Because the nature of change is not. Not epiphany. It’s continual. You know, the reason that addiction feels way far in the rearview mirror mirrors. I’ve got a lot of years of little step by little step walking away from it, right? And I mean, I start the book by.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:20 This whole interview is turned about me, which is not what I want. I want to talk about your book, but the book.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:41:24 A great example, though. My book?
Speaker 5 00:41:25 Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:26 The book does start with this moment where I made there was this, you know, if you were filming the movie of my life, there was this moment where I. They told me I needed to go to treatment, and I said, no. And I went back and I said, I’ll go to treatment. And that’s the that’s the movie scene. But that scene has no value without the thousands upon thousands of little choices I made after that. Make sense? And so we all prioritize an epiphany. We think if we just hear the right podcast, we just hear the right thing. And the reality is that any my belief is any sort of real, lasting change is a long term proposal of sort of changing both how you act in the world and how you feel inside, and you need to do both those things.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:42:12 So. Oh, wow. Well, I really need to read this book.
Eric Zimmer 00:42:15 Well, be careful. You may be getting a blurb request in the not too distant future.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:42:20 Well, at least, at least I’ll let me read the book for free, at least.
Eric Zimmer 00:42:24 I’m, I’m giving you a fair warning. We’ll see. We’ll see. We’re at the stage of the process where you start thinking about that. Yeah. yeah. All right. I want to get back to your book, though, because I want to talk about self-esteem. In what ways do we become victim to our self-esteem? What do you mean when you say, don’t do that?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:42:41 I think you become a victim to your self-esteem when you have to feel good about yourself at all times. And I think it’s okay to be however you are. Sometimes you do something and you feel guilty. Sometimes you do things and you didn’t make the goal you wanted. You don’t have to immediately jump into mode where you have to repair and feel good about yourself again.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:43:11 I think you become a victim to yourself in that way. When you do feel the need to constantly feel good about yourself. it’s okay to not always feel good about yourself.
Eric Zimmer 00:43:23 Yeah, it’s actually useful in many ways. Like if we’re going to talk about addiction, getting over addiction is a large part of you’ve got to really start to feel shitty about yourself. And but at a certain point, that no longer is useful, right? Because then it turns into shame and it drives the whole engine. It’s just this really weird thing where like, you have to be uncomfortable, but, you know, because at the same time, you as we move into the, you know, the first part of the book is don’t be a victim of these things. The later part of the book are, are these things, and one of them is finding the light within. Right. So, you know, talk to me about how I can both recognize I’m not living up to my potential. I didn’t do well there.
Eric Zimmer 00:44:06 I did something I don’t feel good about and see the light within me. How do I do both those things?
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:44:12 What? Self-compassion is the answer, right? If you can hold yourself to higher standard without beating yourself up over not having reached it yet. In a lot of ways, the fact you’re holding yourself up to higher standards shows you that you love yourself. It shows you that you care about your higher self. You see that higher potential. But, you know, self-hatred, self condemnation is is is not the way. Yeah, it’s not the way. It’s not when in any context, I think changing your relationship to yourself that shows kindness sees the common humanity between your suffering and other people’s suffering, and and allows a certain perspective taking there that doesn’t view your own suffering or your own self as the center of the universe as well. That’s another big part of this. I think we can kind of stew too much and in and out, sizing our problems as though they’re the most important problems on this planet.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:45:14 They hate to say they are. They aren’t. But that’s not being hard on yourself. That’s not being mean to yourself. But it’s just it’s a it’s a broader awareness of your one, the oneness of you and the universe.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:26 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I need to make good on my promise of bringing in some listener questions. So, Scott, first, I appreciate you being willing to be our guinea pig on this. Okay, listeners, I appreciate you leaving these voicemails that that many of you left with us. Thank you. I’m not going to be able to get to nearly all of them, but I want to get to some of them. But I thank all of you for doing that. And we’re going to continue to try and find ways to bring your questions and offer answers to them. So here’s the one I’m going to go with to start.
Speaker 6 00:46:00 So firstly, thank you for this invitation. It’s been nearly 25 years since my divorce and still some of the pain lingers. We were together for 15 years.
Speaker 6 00:46:12 Married for 11. I thought we were forever. Then one night at dinner, he looked at me and said, I don’t love you anymore. The next morning he was gone. Everything shifted in an instant. My life, my identity, my future. It all fell apart. I was no longer a wife. I was no longer a part of his family. Friends faded. Conversations became awkward. Invitations stopped in the world I knew vanished overnight or what felt like overnight. And in that void, a belief rooted itself deep inside me. It’s hard to say it out loud even now. But here it goes. I felt unlovable. Even though my logical brain knows that’s not true. My heart has taken longer to catch up. That belief, the silence it created, the shame it stirred, didn’t go away and still hasn’t gone away very easily. I didn’t just lose a marriage. I lost the sense that I was worthy of love and that belief I’ve carried quietly and heavily. It’s still whispers quite often, and I’m still learning how to respond.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:47:21 In a lot of ways, that’s like the definition of trauma. At least how I define it in my book is an event happens to you that fundamentally causes you to change your worldview or your self view. And how can you move forward without a victim mindset? Well, you can, but first acknowledge that it is perfectly human and normal to feel that way after something like that happening. I think almost everyone, when they, when they have something like that happen to them, can become very confused, like, you know, but it sounds like she’s going down the route of the why, why, why is so my am I am I playing Oprah right now? Am I giving advice?
Eric Zimmer 00:48:00 Is that playing Oprah? You’re playing Oprah? Yeah. For for better or worse. For better or worse.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:48:06 Give me the TV show. Give me the TV show. doctor Phil, or maybe I should say Doctor Phil.
Eric Zimmer 00:48:12 Doctor Scott, you’ve got doctor.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:48:14 I am Doctor Scott. Okay, here we go.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:48:16 This is the the inauguration of Doctor Scott. Okay. There you go. no. I think that what I’m hearing, though, is a lot of the why, why, why questions. And when you start going down the y questions, your mind starts to, like, try to grasp the first thing. And usually the first things that come to mind are self-blame. And that’s not the way forward here. that’s not the most it’s certainly not the most productive way forward here. because they’re always everything is mostly determined. Everything. I guarantee you that the explanation cannot be reduced to your unlovable. That’s why he left you. I mean, there is. He obviously loved you for a while. So you are. You obviously have the potential to be loved. Yeah, you’ve proven it. You have an existence proof of that. So first confront the evidence. The evidence suggests that you actually can be loved. Yeah. And also confront and then just ask and and shift from why to what questions like, well, what things can I learn about this situation? Are there any red flags that maybe in the future I could try to avoid? what could he have been thinking? that has nothing to do with me.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:49:29 You know that. What? Maybe. Did I do that I could change in the future? The fact remains that even if some of it is is your fault. Like, it’s not immutable. It’s not something that, like, you can never try to, lead a better life moving forward, you know? So, you know, I would just really encourage post-traumatic growth in this kind of situation.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:51 Yeah. What I hear a fair amount of is I shouldn’t have taken on the burden of unlovable. This shouldn’t still bother me. This shouldn’t still like. What’s wrong with me? That I still feel sort of shaken by that and that’s. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think your question there of what versus why is really helpful. Not. Why do I still feel this. What is the best response today to that. Knowing that it’s okay that certain wounds take a really long time to heal. And to your point. Things are multivariate, meaning that wound triggered something else. There’s a constellation of stuff in here, and it’s okay that it isn’t all teased out and it isn’t all sorted out.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:44 It’s just a question of when that belief arises, working with it in the most skillful way we can.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:50:51 Yes, and I bet she also discovered I’m assuming gender is here. So please forgive me.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:57 It’s her in this case.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:50:59 Yes. Okay.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:59 Yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:51:00 She’s assuming. What was I going to say? I feel like I had a really good point. she also gathered further information about this guy. She probably never saw him as the type of guy who would be capable of being so callous by, even if he did fall out of love with her. It is a callous move to be like, okay, I’m out of love. We’re done. You know, usually a mature, caring human who’s been in a relationship with someone, even if they’ve fallen out of love, is would open up the conversation and at least acknowledge the other person’s pain. So I just one thing. If this helps to make her feel better at all, if she’s listening to this, is he also revealed to you something about his character that it’s not all about? You need to self-flagellating yourself.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:51:49 You know you’re allowed to have a little fuck this guy in you as well. Yeah, yeah, I mean it. I really mean it.
Eric Zimmer 00:51:58 Yeah, I agree, and that’s the weird thing about relationships.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:52:01 Permission. I’m giving her permission to have a little bit. Fuck this guy.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:05 Yeah, yeah. okay, here is one more. I know we’ve only got a couple minutes, so let’s try and do this real quick.
Speaker 7 00:52:12 Hey, Eric. So the limiting belief that I am wrestling with lately has to do with believing that good things are possible and that good things happen. I grew up in a very fear based household, where my parents were always on the lookout for what was going to go wrong, or how people were out to get them, or what bad thing was going to happen next. And I think that mindset really solidified in my childhood. And now that I’m older and, you know, a parent myself and trying to parent teenagers, I really want to believe that good things happen and good things are possible, that dreams can come true.
Speaker 7 00:52:47 But I feel silly and sometimes naive if I’m not always on the lookout for what could happen next. I want to focus on the good. That’s what I have.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:52:57 It sounds like there’s some neuroticism there. Right. There’s some fear of the unknown and.
Eric Zimmer 00:53:04 Define neuroticism real quick because.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:53:07 Personality trait where you a lot of people who, have neuroticism, would rather something bad happen than experience an unknown situation. The unknown drives them insane. You know, it’s like it’s like, wow. You know, like, you mean, I could act this way and something bad could happen. Something bad could happen. Yeah, something bad could happen at any moment in your whole life. Get that out of the way. Get that out of the way. Like. Like it doesn’t just have to be in this situation. No matter what choice you make, something bad could happen. But the point is, you will never get closer. You will never have any chance of realizing your values, your dreams, your aspirations.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:53:50 If you don’t consistently move in the direction of those things and and accept that there might be things holding you back at various points, but also you have to have confidence in your ability to have resiliency if these things happen. So with this person, I would say again, I don’t know this person’s gender, but I would but have a little more, belief and like like like self confidence that even if, you know, the annoying things happen in your path, that you still. You got this.
Eric Zimmer 00:54:27 Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would say, you know, to use a Buddhist phrase, life is the 10,000 sorrows and the 10,000 joys. Like, yes, bad things are going to happen. You’re absolutely right. And it would be naive to believe that bad things don’t happen. But it would also be, cynical to believe that good things don’t also happen. You get both. And I love your point about that. The question becomes not will bad things happen because they will. The question is I now cultivate a belief in myself and in my children that we’re resilient enough to handle bad things, and that we don’t know in what ways bad things will lead to blessings that we can’t see from where we sit.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:55:11 Yeah, I think we should. Me and you should have like the the the doctor Scott Doctor Zimmer show or something.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:16 Well, I’m no doctor. It would be Doctor Scott. And.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:55:20 Well, there’s plenty of doctors who call themselves doctors on TV. Okay.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:24 Okay. Well, yeah, I, I, I never even went to college, so I probably.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:55:28 We’re a good team.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:29 We’re a good team. We’re a good team. Before you check out, pick one insight from today and ask, how will I practice this before bedtime? Need help turning ideas into action? My free weekly Bites of Wisdom email lands every Wednesday with simple practices, reflection and links to former guests who can guide you even on the tough stuff like anxiety, purpose and habit change. Feed your good wolf at one you feed newsletter again one you feed newsletter. All right Scott thank you I appreciate you joining us on the show. I loved the book. It’s great. I appreciate you being a guinea pig with us.
Eric Zimmer 00:56:09 And I appreciate any chance I get to talk with you. So thank you.
Scott Barry Kaufman 00:56:13 Likewise. And I really hope this was a value. And I hope those people that those two people we just respond to, I hope they can get they get a chance to listen to this. Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:56:21 Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I’d love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don’t have a big budget, and I’m certainly not a celebrity. But we have something even better. And that’s you just hit the share button on your podcast app, or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom. One episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the one You Feed community.d together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community.
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