In this episode, Nedra Glover Tawwab talks about why family relationships are so hard and what actually helps navigate them. She explores the complexities of family dynamics, self-sabotage, and why people resist change. Nedra also shares insights on managing discomfort, setting boundaries, and accepting others’ limitations. The conversation covers practical strategies for healthier relationships, the challenges of being a “cycle breaker,” and how to navigate difficult conversations. You’ll discover compassionate guidance for breaking free from unhealthy patterns and fostering self-awareness, acceptance, and growth in family and personal relationships.
Exciting News!!! Coming in March, 2026, my new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot: The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life is now available for pre-orders!
Key Takeaways:
- Family dynamics and their impact on personal development
- Understanding and managing unhealthy relationships
- The concept of self-sabotage and its connection to discomfort
- The role of emotional patterns in addiction and recovery
- Navigating relationships with individuals resistant to change
- The significance of personal accountability in healing
- The complexities of shame and its effects on relationships
- Strategies for effective communication and resolving circular conversations
- The importance of self-compassion and acceptance in difficult relationships
- Recognizing and addressing the influence of family roles and expectations on identity
Nedra Glover Tawwab is the author of the New York Times bestseller Set Boundaries, Find Peace and The Set Boundaries Workbook. A licensed therapist and sought-after relationship expert, she has practiced relationship therapy for more than fifteen years. Tawwab has appeared as an expert on The Red Table Talk, The Breakfast Club, Good Morning America, and CBS This Morning, to name a few. Her work has been highlighted in The New York Times, The Guardian, and Vice. In this episode, Eric and Nedra discuss her new book, Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships
Connect with Nedra Glover Tawwab: Website | Facebook | Instagram
If you enjoyed this conversation with Nedra Glover Tawwab, check out these other episodes:
How to Make Great Relationships with Dr. Rick Hanson
How to Have Healthier Relationships with Yourself and Others with Jillian Turecki
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Episode Transcript:
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:00:00 Even if you’ve trained for it. You went to school for it, you worked hard for it. You’ve done all the work to be in a healthy relationship. You may still feel like, oh, I don’t deserve this good person. It’s the discomfort of being in a new situation.
Chris Forbes 00:00:22 Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts. We have quotes like garbage in, garbage out or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don’t strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don’t have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it’s not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Eric Zimmer 00:01:07 Have you ever gotten to the end of a long and exhausting conversation, and realized you didn’t even know what you were fighting about anymore? Because sometimes the issue isn’t the topic, it’s the loop in this conversation. I’m talking with licensed therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab about how family dynamics can keep us trapped in patterns that feel impossible to change, especially when old wounds and expectations are baked into the relationship. We talk about how to recognize a circular conversation before it eats your whole night. Why never go to bed angry? Might be some of the worst advice ever, and how couples can set simple parameters for conflict so it doesn’t turn into a four hour tennis match. Ned’s book is drama free and this episode is full of clear, usable language for protecting your peace without torching your relationships. I’m Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi Nedra, welcome to the show.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:02:10 Thank you for having me again.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:12 I am very excited to have you on. We will be discussing your latest book called Drama Free A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. But before we do that, we’ll start the show like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there’s a grandparent talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life there’s two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Eric Zimmer 00:02:32 One’s a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second and look up at their grandparent and say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I’d like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you and your life and in your work, and obviously you’ve answered before, but we change.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:02:58 Yeah. You know our pre conversation we were talking about the choices that we can make. So to me that parable represents our freedom to choose.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:10 Yeah that is very simple and succinct. And I tend to agree with you that at its heart that’s what it’s about, that our choices matter. We get to choose and our choices matter. Okay let’s jump into the book. And I just want to kind of start with a line that you say early in the book, which is the relationships that impact us the most are those with family.
Eric Zimmer 00:03:29 The wounds are deep and the relationships are filled with expectations. Say a little more about that.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:03:36 In families, our history is from birth until present. And so whatever challenges we have within our family, for many of us they have existed not just presently, but they’ve been there for a long time. And because those relationships were our primary relationships, they were the first relationships we had, the ones in which we learned about ourselves and other people. Its deep and how we connect with ourselves and other people. And sometimes it’s hard for us to recognize that when we go to therapy and the therapist is like, tell me about your family. You know, most people are like, oh, why are you asking about them? It’s so important because it helps us connect who you are to who you are in your family, who you were allowed to be in your family, and what happened to you in that system?
Eric Zimmer 00:04:31 Yeah. When I hear the word dysfunctional family, I always think of, well, my own family, of course, but I also think of the old Tolstoy quote that starts Anna Karenina, which is happy families are all alike.
Eric Zimmer 00:04:44 Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Do you think that’s true, or do you think that there are real clear patterns of the ways in which we are dysfunctional in our families.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:04:56 I think there are levels to dysfunction. I think what we talk about typically as dysfunction, when I hear the word, I think of shameless. I think of that family and their chaos with substance abuse and financial issues and, you know, people stealing like these very big things happening. But I think it’s also having a parent who won’t allow you to express your feelings. I think it’s also experiencing divorce and your parents not getting along. Yeah. It’s also your siblings bullying you. It’s also your grandparent having a very apparent favorite. You know, it’s it’s so many things. It’s not just those, you know, drug abuse and, you know, these really big things. It can also be these small things that impact us in ways that maybe we don’t consider because we’re looking at the trauma and there’s trauma and a lot of stuff.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:05:54 There’s dysfunction in a lot of things. The dysfunction just means something isn’t working, something isn’t healthy. It’s not going well. There is a problem.
Eric Zimmer 00:06:02 Yeah, yeah. You know, it was helpful for me to eventually start to look at it from a perspective of everybody has developmental needs, and mine didn’t get met for various different reasons. And many people’s don’t get met for various different reasons. And there doesn’t even have to be fault in that. There’s simply just, hey, you know, some things that I needed to get, I didn’t necessarily get. And I think it’s very easy to get into comparative suffering with this stuff to say, oh, you know, well, geez, I heard about this guy who went through all this awful stuff and I didn’t go through anything like that. So I must be okay. I must be fine. How do you get clients kind of over that barrier?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:06:45 What doesn’t work for you doesn’t work for you. And I think sometimes we do look at other situations and we like to level them as bad or worse or better when we don’t have to judge someone else’s situation against our own for our situation to not be good.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:07:01 You’ll hear this sometimes with siblings, where siblings will say, well, my situation was worse because I needed blank and you didn’t need this. Or they listened to you more. They did. You know, whatever these things are, and it’s like you can still have a problem and that other person can have a problem. The problems don’t need to be the same. It doesn’t need to be. You know, I was only abused if this thing happened. It’s like there are tons of things that we might say is damaging to a child. And it doesn’t have to be. Well, my parents lock me on the porch. You don’t have to have these horror stories of, you know, complex sort of meaning for us to have issues with our families. And I think it takes away from suffering when we put ourselves in the position of having to have a really big story in order to suffer.
Eric Zimmer 00:07:51 Yeah, I found the adverse childhood experience testing and score that idea of there’s a whole lot of different adverse childhood experiences you can have, and that was a lens that sort of helped me as a recovering heroin addict.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:06 I was 24 years old and I was like, well, how did I get to be like this? Right? I didn’t choose to end up here. And so it was really interesting because in the first part of my recovery, I was told very clearly by just the circles I was in. Don’t think about that. Don’t worry about that. Just here are the things you need to do to get sober. And that actually worked for me. It actually worked for me. That focus worked for me. I’m not saying it will work for everyone because different levels of trauma are different, but the day came where I did have to reckon with what had happened in my past.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:08:40 At what point would you say in your sobriety that was how many years of being sober before that reckoning occurred.
Eric Zimmer 00:08:47 That reckoning occurred about three and a half years in, and my marriage fell apart. And I was in so much pain and I realized like, well, yeah, of course you’re in pain because a marriage would end.
Eric Zimmer 00:09:00 But I recognized the patterns that I had in relationships. I’d always had them. I was re-enacting this same sort of drama over and over and over. I’m not saying that that was all my fault. I think, you know, in our situation, it was both our challenges. You know, we we met at a heroin dealer’s house. So you can imagine, like, you know, we we brought some things to that relationship. But yeah, it was about three and a half years in for me. And again, I don’t think there’s a right time. That was just when it sort of came to a head for me and really forced me to really look deeper.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:09:33 I’ve worked in substance abuse treatment, and I think one part of it is being clean. But another really big part of it is figuring out why you were abusing anything in the first place. Yeah, and some people really live in that just being clean part. But if you don’t figure out why you were abusing in the first place, I wonder how things show up in other ways.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:10:00 Yeah. You know, I don’t know if you’ve heard the term dry drunk.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:04 Of course.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:10:04 Yeah. Yeah. It’s a person who is sober, but they have all the behaviors that they had when they were alcoholic. Why? They’ve done no work. They’re just not drinking. Yeah. And so there is no change in the person. They’re not treating people better. They’re not less manipulative. They’re not less violent. In some instances, it’s just like they’re sober. Yeah. And that doesn’t necessarily improve who you are as a person or make your relationships better. What really makes your relationships better is figuring out, you know, why that was an issue in the first place?
Eric Zimmer 00:10:37 Yeah. What was interesting for me was, you know, I got into recovery and I really worked the 12 steps pretty diligently. And so I was doing work. You know, a lot of deep work, but the work tended to be oriented towards how I was behaving and the way it was presented to me. And this is, you know, Columbus, Ohio, 1995.
Eric Zimmer 00:10:57 Right. So I’m not making a judgment about the 12 steps or they’re effective. Anything the way it was presented to me, it was very me focused and that was good. I had to take responsibility for myself, my behaviors. But there wasn’t a lot of now let’s untangle that thread of, you know why you feel the need to act that way. It was just sort of like, well, don’t act that way so much. And I’m oversimplifying, but like you’re saying, I hit a point where I don’t feel like I could get on to the next part of my healing without spending some time recognizing where I had come from and what had happened. And it was interesting because then I went from there into it was called Inner Child Work back in 1998, you know, John Bradshaw and I went into that situation and that was all the person I was working with was oriented around. That was the whole game, and that was useful for a period of time. But I also hit a point where I went, wait, okay, now I need to sort of emerge from everything that happened to me and sort of integrate this, my responsibility with what had happened to me.
Eric Zimmer 00:12:02 And I think that’s what you do very, very well. In your book, you bring together, okay, there’s this dysfunction. Here’s why you are and it is still your responsibility to work with those things differently and more skillfully.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:12:15 While many people say that, you know, depression is anger turned inward. And so when you look at substance misuse, you look at some mental health issues. You look at our relationships. Some of us, we do have a tendency to it’s me, it’s me, it’s me. It’s my behavior. When in actuality, perhaps there is someone else we need to be angry at. That doesn’t mean we need to hit them or we need to yell at them. But maybe there is some recognition that I don’t think I was nurtured. Yeah, I don’t think I was loved in a way that I actually felt. I think, you know, they were trying to be loving, but what I really needed was this. I find that when we talk about our families, when I have new clients, getting them to the point of even saying anything about their family is a victory.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:13:08 Yeah. Because they want to sugarcoat everything. It’s like my mom was great and wonderful. She was lovely. She worked really hard. She picked me and my brother and sister up and de La, and she beat us poorly, you know? But she was a great person. It’s like, okay, great. She she made great spaghetti. But wait, let’s go to this part about her, you know, beating you. What was that part?
Eric Zimmer 00:13:31 Right. I think the other version of that is they did the best they can, which is a true statement. Right? True. That is absolutely true, but does not mean that you don’t have impact from the best they could do, right? It doesn’t mean the best they could do was okay for you, right? Both those things can be true. And you talk about that a few different points in the book. Is this recognition that multiple things can be true. We can, you know, recognize the things that happen to us when we are younger and we can have a relationship with our family.
Eric Zimmer 00:14:00 I mean, there’s a way to be angry about some of the things that happened and also be grateful for some of the things that happened. Right? That both those things are possible. But I do agree. I think the tendency is towards sugarcoating.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:14:11 Yeah, it’s really difficult for us to reconcile that those relationships aren’t black and white like it’s this or it’s that. It’s all these things, and it doesn’t mean that you don’t love a person. It just means that you recognize some problematic parts of that relationship. And recognizing that can really help you move away from some of your stuck points or be healthier in your relationship, or choose a lifestyle that actually works for you instead of one that you’re trying to pretend to exist in. You know, we don’t realize how much we’re playing into the roles that were assigned to us. I think about some of the things that were told to me as a child, like, you’re so nice, you’re so this. So if I was anything else, it was like, oh, you’re not being yourself.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:14:58 I’m like, wait, I never said I was nice. Like, you kept saying that because I was a baby, that dude or something. Now I’m 12 and I got stuff to say, you know, like, I’m, I’m not saying this about myself, but, you know, sometimes people will try to get you to be a certain way because it’s to their advantage. It’s to a parent’s advantage to have a child that listens and sit still and will eat anything you cook and doesn’t have an issue, you know that’s to their advantage. It’s to teachers advantage to have you quiet in the classroom. So yeah, if that’s what we want, of course we’re going to, you know, try to encourage a person to be that way, to tell them, you know, you’re a good girl, a bad girl behavior because we are seeking a certain type of behavior from a person, but most people don’t fit into that. I think some people pretend very well.
Eric Zimmer 00:15:49 Yeah. So what does a parent do in that situation? Because as a parent there is a role of, okay, I do kind of need to shape the behavior of a child to some degree.
Eric Zimmer 00:16:00 Right. That’s part of my job as a parent. Right. And there are certain behaviors that I want to encourage and others I don’t want to encourage. Right. Like I do want to encourage being kind to the people around you. And I want to discourage hitting them. I mean, just very simple, right? So how do parents do that without doing what you just suggested, which is, you know, sort of forcing them into a box, labeling them, making them feel if they’re not that way, you know, getting shame involved. And this is a big topic, but what are a couple things that that parents could think about as ways to do that, that are less harmful.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:16:35 I think about the difference between change and behavior and changing personality. I think sometimes parents lean towards trying to change their personality. There are some people who will always, you know, be boisterous. Right. Do we want to take that away from them, or do we want to let them know the times and places where they can do that? I happen to be a parent of a child, and the octave in which she speaks is typically very loud.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:17:01 I’m like, where are we? We’re in a car, girl. You know, it’s like, why are you that loud? Are you Mariah Carey? Like it’s you’re just screaming, you know? So there are times when, you know, if we’re at a place running around, I don’t care. But if we’re walking into the library, I may say to you, you know, we’re going into a quiet space. Remember to use your quiet voice. You can be loud. I’m not saying you should never be loud. Sometimes we try to strip the person of a behavior. They have to be organized. They have to, you know, be kind to everyone. Well, there are some people who don’t deserve our kindness. Should we listen to every adult because they’re older. No. You know there are some things that require further examination. I grew up in a time where you respect adults no matter what. And I knew a lot of adults who didn’t deserve respect. Yep. I’m like, you want me to listen to this person?
Speaker 4 00:17:55 Just like.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:17:56 I don’t think that this person should be telling a kid what to do. They don’t seem to have it together themselves. But it’s interesting that we don’t allow kids to have the preferences that we want for ourselves. Adults have lots of preferences. I don’t want to deal with this person. I don’t want to go here. But with kids it’s like, nope, no preference. You have to do everything I do. How do we as adults allow them to have some freedom? Not complete freedom, but just a little bit.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:25 Yeah, and I think you’re talking about learning to teach kids about context. That context matters, right? And because that’s ultimately what as a grown human, we need to be able to do is respond wisely and appropriately to the contexts that we are in. And so if we always limit a child in a particular way and just, you know, in a box, then they’re not learning that context, they’re not learning how to evaluate a situation and say, oh, well, maybe I want to respond this way, or maybe I want to respond that way.
Eric Zimmer 00:18:55 So I think that’s the other limitation of just this very prescribed approach is we’re not teaching the one of the, I think, key skills of being an adult, which is that context recognition.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:19:06 Yes, I love that context. Thank you.
Eric Zimmer 00:19:09 I’d like to talk now about shame. Shame is a big one, and I think it seems to be one of the things that I, in working with listeners of the show and getting to know a lot of listeners of the show, and having worked with people who are in addiction and recovery for a long, long time. Shame is a huge issue. Talk to me about the ways that shame gets in the way of our own healing process.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:19:38 Shame limits our ability to be honest with ourselves and with others. We fear that we will be judged. We fear that what has happened to us will be held against us, as if we have some control over it. And shame keeps us in unhealthy patterns. It keeps us in unhealthy relationships because we’re too afraid to own up to what happened.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:20:03 I’ve heard too many adult children of alcoholics say I didn’t have any kids. I didn’t have any friends growing up because my parent was drunk and I was embarrassed. I didn’t want to bring anybody home. You know, the shame of that isolated them in ways that they don’t even have, you know, childhood memories of friendship like other people do in sleepovers. And that that connection that is so vital for kids growing up because they’re like, you know, it was just it was too embarrassing. So that shame can really hold us back from moments in life that we deserve to experience.
Speaker 5 00:20:39 Yeah. What do you say about people who.
Eric Zimmer 00:20:41 Have shame of even being seen and loved? Even that very positive reaction towards them causes them to almost want to hide and feel like they don’t deserve it.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:20:53 Yeah, we have to learn to love ourselves. We have to learn to live with our stories. We have to learn to allow people to love us. When you haven’t experience authentic love, it can feel very weird.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:21:08 You know, sometimes we equate love with pain. We equate it with dysfunction. We equate it with abuse. You know, I think of parents whipping their kids and maybe saying, you know, I did that for your own good and wanting a hug afterwards. Like, that’s an interesting dynamic, you know, to to get spanked and then hug someone like in what sort of. So it’s, it’s sort of teaching like, you know, this is a part of relationships. I heard you and then we love each other. So how do we sort of say, this is loving and this is not loving? We have to unlearn our idea of love and demand something different. You know, I don’t want to be loved in a painful way. I don’t want to be loved in a way where you do things to me, and I have to accept everything that you do. That’s not the type of love that I want.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:17 People often use a phrase that I’m curious kind of what you think about, and it’s they refer to something as self-sabotage.
Eric Zimmer 00:22:25 You know, I’m self-sabotaging. Does that make sense to you psychologically, or is there something else you would call that?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:22:33 You know, I do think that self-sabotaging is a thing. I think when we are uncomfortable with something, we tend to move back towards chaos because that is familiar. And so many of us, we can be in the most relaxing state, but because we’re not used to being relaxed. It’s like, where’s the drama? Where’s the chaos? Someone’s not arguing. Okay, let me pick our argument. And that’s where that, you know, quote unquote self-sabotage comes in. Do I think we know we’re doing that? No. I think most self-sabotage is unconscious. I don’t think most people are saying, you know, I really want to harm myself right now. Let me mess this situation up. Oh, let me cheat in this relationship. Oh, I should steal this and get caught. You know, it’s not that conscious. It is a Byproduct of our discomfort. It is a byproduct of not believing that we can exist differently.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:23:29 So yes, self-sabotage is a thing. Is it something we should pay attention to? Absolutely. When we notice you’re really in situations that aren’t so bad. I was dealing with the situation with a family member who said, oh my gosh, I never get to talk to your kids. So I told them the exact day to call my kids every week. You know, these are the days where they don’t have activities. They won’t call on those days. And so they will say, oh my gosh, I never get to talk to your kids. Now some people might say, oh, they’re self-sabotaging a relationship. I would say I’m not going to enable them by forcing this. But I also think what they’re trying to do is they have this thought of people should reach out to me. Love is you coming to me is not me coming to you. And people care about me when they do blank. When someone is very direct with you, that might be off putting and so you are able to live in your story of being unloved because you’re creating this environment of not being loved.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:24:26 Even though there’s a clear behavior that you could exhibit. So I think self-sabotage is sometimes that where people are being clear. I’ve heard people say, like, all they want is for me to be more affectionate and I can’t do it. And it’s like, sounds like that would change the relationship if you threw out a few I love you’s, but for some of us, it’s so hard to do.
Speaker 4 00:24:47 That.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:24:47 That I don’t think it’s like a conscious thing of.
Speaker 4 00:24:50 Oh, I’m.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:24:51 Not going to do that for them. I think it’s more, I feel so uncomfortable doing this that I just, I can’t do it. I can’t train myself to say it. I can’t practice it. It is so uncomfortable for me. So I think of self-sabotage as a discomfort.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:09 Yeah, I think that’s a great way to think about it. And actually a more empowering and useful way to think about it. Because self-sabotage. I start saying, well, I just am doing this because I don’t think I deserve it.
Eric Zimmer 00:25:21 And that may be true, but you got closer, I think, to the real thing, which is when I’m doing whatever that behavior we’re labeling is. Self-sabotage is what’s going on inside me, around that specific behavior. And I think that, you know, that’s a layer deeper and a layer more helpful.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:25:39 I think of the same thing with the phrase imposter syndrome. I think imposter syndrome is a manifestation of your discomfort. You receive something, then you question, oh my gosh, do I deserve this? Am I going to do a good job that they pick the right person? Am I supposed to be graduating from this thing? Do I you know, it’s discomfort. It’s really just discomfort.
Speaker 4 00:26:01 Yeah.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:26:02 I don’t know how to exist in this new space. Even if you’ve trained for it. You went to school for it. You worked hard for it. You’ve done all the work to be in a healthy relationship. You may still feel like, oh, I don’t deserve this good person. It’s the discomfort of being in a new situation.
Eric Zimmer 00:26:20 So I think that most change involves some degree of discomfort. Right. If it didn’t, everybody would change everything. Right. But it does tend to bring us to a point of being uncomfortable. I don’t think it’s the only reason people don’t change, but it is a big one. So what are ways of meeting that discomfort? Okay. I have decided I’m going to set a boundary with my mother about X, and every time I go see my mom, I just I’m to. I can’t do it. I said that several times. People say I just can’t do it. You know, I remember with my dad, he’s in a memory care unit and it’s too late. But I remember I would get these ideas of like, all right, I’m going to try and talk with my dad. And in a deeper way, I’m going to bridge this gap between us, you know. And when I was younger, I would just for a long time, the pattern was so strong, I would just literally when I got there, think, I don’t want to.
Eric Zimmer 00:27:11 That was a dumb idea. I don’t want to. And then later I got to. Okay. All right. I’m a little bit past that, which was so subconscious, but it’s still this is incredibly uncomfortable. So how do people lean into that feeling of uncomfortableness and actually get through? To do.
Speaker 4 00:27:28 It?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:27:29 You have to want to change your life enough. You have to want to change the relationship enough. And sometimes our ambivalence is a sign we’re not ready. We don’t want to accept that I should be ready now. And it’s like, you’re not ready now. You know, sometimes I’ve had difficult conversations like I was forced into them, just like the other situations made me ready. It’s like, dang, I didn’t want to say this now, but I feel like my hand is forced and I have to say it. So to me, you know, that was like a beautiful unfolding of other things to put me in a situation, to have to say this very clear thing. But there are times where we may not be ready.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:28:09 And, you know, I think we don’t have to, you know, I think we trick ourselves to think like, I have to say this and, you know, sometimes I’ll have clients and for years they talk about the same issue over and over, and it’s like you’re not ready to change it. And that’s okay. You know, I think talking about it is helping you get ready. I hope you get ready. But sometimes we never get to the point of having that hard conversation. We just stay in that processing phase. But I think that it can be quite challenging to force ourselves to do something with a level of discomfort that we’re not ready to receive from that other person. Right? Because sometimes we’re not ready because we know it’ll end the relationship. Sometimes we’re not ready because we know that the other person will give us the silent treatment the rest of the trip. If we say this thing, sometimes the discomfort makes sense. It’s like, you know, I wouldn’t want to put you in a position where you’ll have to deal with this sort of outcome.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:29:07 So I don’t have a lot of judgment around people not having those conversations. I think conversations, I think things work themselves out in the way that they’re supposed to.
Eric Zimmer 00:29:18 We had John Norcross on recently, who was one of the people who was one of the early researchers of the Stages of Change model, and you write about the stages of change model in your book, and you say that some of the stuff in psychology is similar to, you know, the stages of change and breaking a habit. And I think what you’re talking about is people often are in the contemplation phase. I know I should have a conversation with my mother, or I know it would be helpful to have a conversation with my mother, but I’m not ready. And one of the things that the Stages of change model does, and I think is interesting, is it points to things that you can do that are stage appropriate. So instead of lamenting that I’m not in the action phase, there are things we can do, questions we can ask ourselves, ways of approaching that might move us out of contemplation into action.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:09 What are some of the things that you try and do with a client when the time seems right, or if they’re frustrated? Right. I can’t seem to get to action on this. What are some of the things in the contemplation stage that are helpful to do?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:30:21 You know, in the contemplation stage, I think my job is to move people towards deeper thought is not necessarily to move people towards action, it’s to move them towards thinking about their situation, the pattern of the situation, and perhaps their acceptance is it will always be this way and I want a relationship. So these are things I have to deal with. So in the contemplation stage we talk a lot about dealing with things better. You know, not necessarily trying to change anything. But you know, if you go over there they’re going to do this thing. How will you manage it this time?
Speaker 5 00:30:59 Yeah.
Eric Zimmer 00:30:59 You write in the book, if you feel stuck in the contemplation stage, you know, here’s some questions you might consider, right? How might change be beneficial to my mental and emotional health.
Eric Zimmer 00:31:08 You know what am I giving up to stay the same? Who benefits if I don’t make any changes? I think those are really useful questions. And as you said, it’s to get people to think deeper, you know, more deeply about what is this? You’ve got a chapter which I think you could have just titled the book and it would have been a bestseller, right. Which is basically how to manage relationships with people who won’t change because nearly everybody has something there. Like if my partner.
Speaker 6 00:31:37 Would just do this one little thing.
Eric Zimmer 00:31:40 So talk to me about managing relationships when people won’t change, and how to sort of sort out what is like, yeah, I can live with that. And no, I can’t. I’ll give you just a couple examples maybe that you can refer to. One would be someone who’d say, my spouse won’t quit smoking, I love them, everything is great, but they won’t quit smoking and we’ve got kids and it just pisses me off. That’s on one hand versus somebody who’s saying my partner feels like they’re really sort of emotionally abusive to me.
Eric Zimmer 00:32:09 Maybe those aren’t the words they would label it, but they would come in with signs of that. And those are very different things, but both really significant.
Speaker 4 00:32:18 Yeah.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:32:18 In those situations, I think what we need to focus on is changing ourselves. We can certainly make requests, but we can’t force a person to stop smoking. As the daughter of two cigarette smokers and I do not smoke, you know, in my home it’s no smoking. That is what I can do here. I can’t make you stop smoking. I can say, you know, when I come visit, I don’t want to stay with you because I don’t want to live in a smoke filled environment. Or I can say, you know, to my partner, can you smoke outside instead of smoking in the house? Or I can say to my partner, can you wash your hands after you smoke your cigarettes before holding me? Those are some possible changes you can make. But to get them to quit. That is a bigger issue for them to manage.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:33:08 And sometimes we’re trying to get people to be like us because we’re so great and wonderful, and we want them to be exactly like us, and they don’t want that. You know, I think they are doing what they want to do, and we have to figure out how to be in relationships with people when they are doing what they want to do. They’re resistant to change. Sometimes they don’t see any harm in their behavior or they are not ready to do any work. You know, when we get to the phase of being ready to do the work, we think everybody should be at the same phase. Why is this person being so rude? Don’t they know about the work?
Speaker 4 00:33:47 Is this like.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:33:48 You are doing the work? If you’re doing the work? You don’t be rude to them. You do what you can in this dynamic. It’s not about them having to have all these tools. You have the tools. So often with my clients, I talk about The person that you’re speaking about.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:34:05 They’re not in this room. The only person we can work with today is you. Not your partner, not your kids. So let’s talk about what you can do in the relationship. You can organize the date nights. I can’t tell your partner that because they’re not here. I can’t tell your mother to start calling before she stops by because she’s not here. I can say to you, you know, maybe you want to say this, or what do you do when she just comes over and she hasn’t called? Like, those are things that we can work on.
Speaker 4 00:34:37 Yeah.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:34:37 We can’t work on a person who isn’t ready to change because they just want to be themselves. So the real change is you showing up as this force and saying, hey, this is not okay. This is not something that I want in this relationship. I cannot tolerate this or, hey, can you please do this thing or can you shift it a little bit? You know, for this reason, those are the things that we can do to manage our relationships with people who do not want to change, because everybody is not interested in change.
Eric Zimmer 00:35:08 Yeah, there’s a quote I love. I don’t know who said it, but it says something to the effect of, you know, when you realize how hard it is to change yourself, you recognize how nearly impossible it is to change someone else. Right. Ourselves is a tall order. So let’s say a client presents with what I just suggested, which is? It just makes me mad that my partner is doing x, Y or Z. It could be smoking. It could be like they just won’t change their diet and their doctor has told them they need to. Or let’s not even go into problem drinking. You know, but it’s of a similar thing. What does a person do within themselves to become more accepting of that is that the basic thing is become more accepting of it.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:35:49 You know what? I think I could have titled this book. You’re uncomfortable and you’re trying to make people change to deal with your discomfort when people won’t change. It’s hard to watch them be as they are. If we know smoking is better, if we know that this better diet will save your life, it’s hard to watch them do these things.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:36:09 And so what we try to do is make them fix our discomfort. Stop eating like that so I can stop feeling uncomfortable watching you eat. Stop smoking so I can stop feeling uncomfortable about.
Speaker 4 00:36:21 You know, you’re getting lung cancer. It’s. Yeah.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:36:25 You know, I want to be able to live my life however I want to live it. If I want to eat 500 pieces of candy a day, please let me. Please, please let me live this life that I want to live. This is my choice. But we feel like, you know, if it’s not good for them, we have to stop them from doing it. We’re not stopping them from doing it. Sometimes we’re making them want to do it more because they know they’re already doing something that they shouldn’t be doing. Sometimes we’re getting in the way of their quality of life, you know, despite health issues. People may still want to eat poorly because they enjoy it, so you’re pressuring them to change their diet isn’t necessarily changing them as much as it’s adding problems to the relationship.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:37:10 The part that you can change is what you cook for the household, you know, so they could go out and stop at, you know, KFC or wherever and eat whatever they want to eat. But what are you cooking at home? What are you purchasing for them to buy? What are you eating in front of them? Those are the sort of things that you can manage. You can’t manage what they choose to put into their body.
Speaker 5 00:37:31 Yeah, that is an.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:32 Easy thing to sort of hear. And a very difficult thing to.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:37:37 To apply.
Eric Zimmer 00:37:38 To apply and live out for sure. Another thing in this, managing relationships with people who won’t change is, you know, you say if you want to maintain relationships with people who want change, it’s up to you to make changes, right. You have to do the work to accept situations. Another thing I think this is really helpful, which is like if you’re in a difficult Relationship and you’re not ready to go. And I was this way for a long time in a marriage that was really bad.
Eric Zimmer 00:38:02 I just was in this place. But saying to myself, I’m choosing to stay in this relationship despite what the relationship is, I am not stuck. I’m not powerless, and I am making a choice.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:38:13 We have to acknowledge the role we play in our own discomfort. We have to acknowledge the role.
Eric Zimmer 00:38:19 We check in for a moment. Is your jaw tight, breath shallow. Are your shoulders creeping up? Those little signals are invitations to slow down and listen. Every Wednesday I send weekly bites of wisdom, a short email that turns the big ideas we explore here in each show. Things like mental health, anxiety, relationships, purpose into bite size practices you can use the same day it’s free. It takes about a minute to read and thousands already swear by it. If you’d like extra fuel for the weekend, you also get a weekend podcast playlist. Join us at one. That’s one. You get a newsletter and start receiving your next bite of wisdom. All right. Back to the show. I think those choices often feel very constrained, though.
Eric Zimmer 00:39:13 They feel like, yeah, I’m making a choice, but I’m choosing between several really terrible alternatives here. And it’s not like there’s a good choice on the board. If there was, I would pick that one. But I’m choosing between things that seem almost equally bad, which I think is why it’s so hard to get out of a relationship, particularly if you’ve got children. I mean, there isn’t a great choice there. You know, the great choice would be, could I roll back the clock and, you know, not have gotten here. But we do have the choice. And it’s often feels like those choices are constrained by a series of not good options for sure.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:39:49 I think that we stay because As we are fixated on other possible outcomes and family relationships. Just because you end a relationship with one person doesn’t mean that you’ll never see that person again, or you won’t hear about them. It’s like, no, they may still come to the holiday gathering because other people have a relationship with them.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:40:10 They might still come up in conversation because other people have a relationship. Other people may ask you about this person and where your relationship with them is. So there are so many different things that you can do that you know, I think further damage your ability to leave the relationship.
Eric Zimmer 00:40:32 Yeah. I like the idea that you talked about earlier, which is recognizing that we are in a contemplation stage and maybe allowing ourselves to be there. For myself, when I was in that difficult marriage, one of the things that was the most painful, and it took me a while to realize it, one of the most painful things was how bad I felt about myself, because I couldn’t figure this out. You know, I felt like I should know what to do, and I should do it. And it was complicated, right? It felt complicated to me. And one of the ways that I existed better in there. And maybe I shouldn’t have existed. I don’t even know the answer now, what I should have done.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:09 But one of the things was to have some compassion for where I was in the process and recognized, like, if this was an easy choice.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:41:15 You would have.
Eric Zimmer 00:41:16 Made. I have made it by now. You know, and I see lots of people who are in difficult situations who are very hard on themselves because they feel like they should have solved it. Yeah. Some of these are not easy problems to solve. Like you said, there’s lots of consequences to action.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:41:33 Yeah. With families, I mean, the relationships are so longstanding. To terminate a relationship you’ve been in for 30 years or to terminate a relationship with a parent. I think it it’s such a big deal, and it shouldn’t be taken lightly. You should take your time to figure out if this is really what you want to do. Now, there are some instances that will speed up their process, like if there’s a safety issue. But you know, for many other issues, it’s a slow process. I used to work with kids and foster care and they were removed from their homes, you know, sometimes for some very severe reasons.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:42:12 And most of those kids want it to go back home. They weren’t like, you know what? I’m done with my mom. She burned me in the bathtub. I never want to talk to her again. It’s like, when can I see my mom? So even them and those, you know, horrific situations, sometimes there was no idea that I could be without this person who has given me life, even if they harmed me in a very severe way. So it takes many of us some time to get to the point of acknowledging that this relationship is more damaging than I am able to live with.
Eric Zimmer 00:42:47 What you just told that story points to how thorny these things are, and how difficult to sort out for so many of us in so many ways. I want to continue down the thread a little bit about managing relationships with people who won’t change chapter, and you talk about a couple of things that might be problematic for us. And one is you say our beliefs about others abilities say more about what you mean by that.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:43:12 Yeah, we expect people to be like us. So if we’ve changed something, we think they should be able to change it. And we don’t all have the same ability to change. We don’t all have the same desire to change. We don’t all have the same capacity and support to change. And we have to recognize that in others that their disempowerment is really where they are. They are disempowered. Everybody’s not empowered enough to make these changes. I think about, you know, in families where people are like, I’m a cycle breaker. I’m the only person in my family who acknowledges, you know, the abuse or I’m the only person in my family who, you know, stands up against this issue. And it’s like, yeah, it must be hard being really different. I’m not shocked that there are tons of people who are like, nope, don’t want those problems. You know, most people are like, nah, I’ll just I’ll just stay down here and do my thing and we’ll be all happy.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:44:08 No one wants to deal with the blowback of that. So, you know, it’s not necessarily about like they have the information as much as they need to also have the ability to support and many other things to actually implement some changes.
Eric Zimmer 00:44:25 A really clear example of that in my life was watching my partner, Jenny’s mom, develop Alzheimer’s. We were the primary caregivers for her. And, you know, there was a period of time where I felt like in my mind, it was like, well, she should be able to do that. And then it became clear. At a certain point I just really realized, like, well, hey, how do I know what she’s what she’s capable of, right? And the fact that she can’t do it is probably a pretty good sign she can’t do it right now. And in that case, it was really easy to let go of because it was very clear, like, oh, there are tangles forming in her brain that are shutting down parts of her brain and that no longer works at all.
Eric Zimmer 00:45:06 Easy to let go and go, well, that’s her ability, right? It’s a lot harder to see that with other people. But when we realize that there are so many countless causes and conditions that make anybody who they are and we don’t know even a fraction of those, usually.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:45:21 We don’t know the story of everyone in our lives, even if we spent every day with them. You know, we often think, oh, I know everything about my mom, I don’t I wasn’t with her during her childhood. I have no clue what happened. Yeah. You know, so I can only guess some of the things that I know. I don’t know every experience that my partner has had. I only know the ones that they’ve mentioned to me. And now there may be others that shapes who they are and makes them think a certain way about their abilities. We have to be very careful to not project who we are and what we’re capable of. On to other people.
Eric Zimmer 00:46:00 Yeah, because even in that case of like, okay, I know about my partner’s past, they’ve told me everything.
Eric Zimmer 00:46:06 There are things that affect us that we don’t even know about. Right. I mean, I’m sure there are countless things that have happened to me that shaped me or moved me or in some direction that I couldn’t tell you they did. I don’t know, I don’t know why I’m the way I am. There are some big things I can point to, but I think we’re always shaped by so many factors.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:46:26 And we’re shaped in different ways.
Eric Zimmer 00:46:28 Yeah, yeah. The next line that you say in this chapter about, you know, managing relationships with people who won’t change is that expectations are healthy, but they should be based on the individual, not their role in your life. Say more about their abilities versus their role.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:46:45 All people are not all things. There are times, particularly with parents, where our expectation is that they’re nurturing, they’re loving, they’re supportive, they’re kind. They’re this their that. Your mother is not nurturing. You could want that to be an idea of a mother, perhaps on TV, perhaps in other people lives.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:47:05 But you have to look at the person you’re talking about. Does this person as your mother, their role of mother? Do they exhibit those qualities? And often it’s a no. So you can want someone to be something and that’s, you know, that’s fine. But to try to make them that way, particularly after you’re an adult and they’ve done all of this parenting and they’re continuing to be themselves is quite challenging to, you know, request or require that from a person. It’s not necessarily the healthiest for your relationship to say, you know, my siblings should be like this, or my grandparents should be, you know, this particular way because this is what grandparents do. It’s like, what in particular are your grandparents doing? Because that’s what they’re capable of. What in particular are your parents doing? That’s what they’re capable of. We’re not talking about people on TV. We’re not talking about things you read in books. We’re talking about the reality of your particular situation.
Eric Zimmer 00:48:06 Yeah, that line, you should do this because of, like you said, your role.
Eric Zimmer 00:48:12 You know, that’s what a sister should do. That’s what a partner should do. That can cause a lot of suffering in a hurry.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:48:17 Yeah. For sure. I think it’s a way that we continue to harm ourselves by holding people to their role and not to, you know, who they actually are. We. And it’s hard, you know, it’s hard to accept that a person isn’t what you need. And many of us will try to keep, you know, looking for signs of, oh, was that the thing I needed? It’s like, no, that’s not it. Again, because some people just don’t have certain qualities in them.
Eric Zimmer 00:48:45 Yeah. I had a good laugh reading your part about going card shopping and how like we go card shopping and the cards are just so positive that most of our relationships are not that clear cut. And, you know, there’s maybe some good things, there’s some bad things. And then that cards don’t show any of that nuance. And I think it’s kind of funny to imagine writing cards that would be, you know, a dysfunctional family card line, I think.
Eric Zimmer 00:49:13 I think I may have just found the job for my partner in this show, Chris, who’s the editor. He may be uniquely suited to do that given a sense of humor. It does bring up feelings of, okay, it’s Mother’s Day, you know, these sort of holidays, I think, and Mother’s Day and things like that can really be difficult for people because we do have to acknowledge on some level when it’s happening, that our relationships aren’t what we wish they were.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:49:42 Yeah, and I’ve seen people pretend on social media, you know, I know their personal situation. But on social media on Mother’s Day or Father’s Day, they have this heartfelt for the father who gave me everything I ever needed, who was you know, they write the card on social media and I’m like, you just reconnected with this guy two years ago. What are you doing? You know, so there is this internal pressure, you know, for us to fit inside of the card. And sometimes what we really need is to, you know, maybe go to the card section where the card is super basic, that just says, Happy Father’s Day, happy birthday.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:50:21 You know, we don’t we don’t like those cards. We like the ones with the beautiful messaging. But, you know, we just need to congratulate them on the day. We may not need to speak to the quality of the relationship, because what we’re saying in the card is not necessarily true.
Eric Zimmer 00:50:36 Yeah. We were just discussing our upcoming Spiritual Habits program, although by the time listeners hear this, it may not be upcoming anymore. I don’t know. Anyway, it happens every Sunday and we were looking at one of the Sundays was Mother’s Day, and we were like, should we have the program on Mother’s Day or not? Easter felt like, well, Easter is a pretty major holiday. We’ll skip Easter, Mother’s Day. The debate was interesting because on one hand we were like, well, there’s a lot of people who are going to want to spend time with their family. Mothers are going to want to be with their children. You know, people might want to be with their mother. And then we went, well, there’s a lot of people to whom Mother’s Day is a difficult day for, you know, my partner, you know, Mother’s Day.
Eric Zimmer 00:51:11 Her mom has just passed other people. I know Mother’s Day is difficult because they don’t have a good relationship with their mother or with their children. And so it was just interesting to have this debate about how this day is not the same for everyone.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:51:26 Yeah. It’s really not. And we need to be sensitive to that. You know maybe there’s another card line to people who lost their mothers, who are grieving that loss. You know, maybe they need a card because that is a real thing, that this day doesn’t have the same meaning to all of us, like many holidays. You know, Thanksgiving, Christmas, you know, all of those holidays. Some people, you know, their memories of holidays are terrible. It’s like, you know, this is the time of year when, you know, this horrible thing happened to us, or this is the time of year when my grandmother died or this is, you know, so it’s not like this day or this experience is happy for everyone.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:52:05 And so we do have to be sensitive to people who maybe have some family issues.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:11 This is the day I have to spend with a bunch of people that I barely know, and pretend that we are really close. I mean, on a more benign way. I think that’s a lot of people’s experience. You know, it’s like, why am I with these people that I only see on Thanksgiving? And I don’t even particularly necessarily want to, but I feel like I should. So here we all are. And and everybody feels uncomfortable. I wouldn’t know anybody like that, by the way. I’m just.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:52:34 Just throwing that out there.
Eric Zimmer 00:52:36 Throwing out? Yeah. Things I’ve heard about. Things I’ve heard about. Yeah. Let’s talk about an Instagram post that you had recently that I thought was really interesting, which was ways to end a circular conversation. So first, what is a circular conversation?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:52:52 A circular conversation is one that just goes back and forth. There is no. And you say something, they say something, they say something. You say something and you keep going round and round. And sometimes we are doing that because we want to convince the person of a thing. We want to get them to agree with us or think like us, because we think that that is the true way to change their behavior, when in actuality, people can change their behavior without being convinced or agreeing to what you say. We, you know, spent 18 years as children. I certainly did a lot of things that I didn’t understand or respect. You know, I was like, stand over here. Okay, fine. I wasn’t like, why convince me to stand here? It’s like, no, we often do things that people ask or request. So in circular conversations, we’re just really just, you know, it’s kind of like playing tennis. We’re just going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And not everything has a resolution.
Eric Zimmer 00:53:50 Yeah. And often these circular conversations are not only circular, they repeat themselves over and over and over and over again. It’s like the circular conversation that just keeps happening every two weeks. You know, it’s a circle within a circle, I guess. So what are ways of ending circular conversations that are constructive?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:54:08 Agree to disagree. Now you can get really creative with your agreeing to disagree. You know, I’ve heard your position. It doesn’t sound like you know we agree on this. Let’s just tap out for now. Or you know, thank you for your perspective. Mine is different and I’d like to revisit this in the future or I’m right.
Eric Zimmer 00:54:29 You’re wrong.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:54:30 I’m right, you’re wrong.
Eric Zimmer 00:54:31 I’m right, you’re wrong. And let’s move on.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:54:33 Hold on. You know, there there are so many ways to get out of that conversation without continuing to be right on the wheel of. I have to convince them. It’s like, you know, or not. You know, I’ve heard adults argue over really interesting things like, this person is a better singer. It’s like singing is a preference. Like you don’t have to have this conversation with the person.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:54:55 Like, okay, great. It’s nice you think that. Moving on, I disagree.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:00 This is an old drunken argument, but and it’s stupid, but it just came to mind when you said it, which was I was getting me and my partner at the time were arguing about whether the White Stripes or the strokes were better, and it was actually getting heated. And, you know, I looked back on them like, that is just preposterous. Like, there is no better in this sort of situation, right? There’s just preference. But I was young and didn’t didn’t apparently fully recognize that in my drunken state. But you’re right, there are a lot of conversations that really are that way. It’s like, but there isn’t a right answer here.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:55:36 There’s just your preference in my preference and preferences can be respected without being, you know, agreed upon.
Eric Zimmer 00:55:46 Okay, so that’s one way. Agreeing to disagree. What are some other ways of getting out of a circular conversation?
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:55:52 I don’t want to talk about this anymore. You know, so not even saying, hey, I agree to disagree, but I’m out of here. I don’t want to talk about this anymore. You know, this conversation is starting to get heated. Or, you know, this conversation is moving in a direction that I don’t necessarily want to go. So I will tap out.
Eric Zimmer 00:56:11 So let me ask a question about that. I’m going to do a little bit of gender stereotyping here, which is a dangerous thing to do. But I’m going to I’m going to wade into it for a second. Okay. And I’m just going to say that that is a complaint that many women have about the men in their life. Let’s do away with gender. One person is saying, I bring up this thing that matters to me. And you always say, I don’t want to talk about it. So we never really get to chance to talk about it. So maybe that’s not a circular conversation. That’s something else.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:56:37 Yeah, I would say that there is a continuation of back and forth in a circular conversation.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:56:43 If you never want to talk about anything that is problematic because you’ve never talked about it, so do not want to talk about it is interesting you’re just shutting down. But if you’re having the conversation with someone like I’ve noticed sometimes, you know, in disputes, it’s like my point, your point counterpoint, counterpoint at this point. And another example and another example, it’s like we have five examples. We have two counter points. When will we say okay got it. Thank you for all of this information. I’ll take it back to the team. Yeah, that was enough. I think I know exactly what you’re needing in this moment. So it’s not saying I don’t want to talk about it, but it’s like we’ve talked through it because sometimes we think that arguing for a long time makes the conversation more productive. When there are things we could say in a shorter window of time that will be more productive than arguing for four hours. A four hour conversation is guaranteed circular.
Eric Zimmer 00:57:39 Yeah, I sometimes think one of the worst pieces of marital advice I’ve ever heard was never go to bed angry, you know? Because what that ends up causing is lots of circular conversations well into the night, when both people are way too tired to be having a useful conversation about anything.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:57:55 Yeah. You know, I think it’s one of these things we have to learn how to communicate with other people. And just because you communicate well in one relationship doesn’t mean that those same communication skills work in other relationships. So it’s not just about, you know, you leaving the interaction. It’s about the other person knowing when to stand down. You know, it’s like, how long should we argue about something? And those are conversations you can have, particularly in a partnership in a marriage, you would want to have that conversation like what are healthy arguing skills? What are the things we shouldn’t do? I remember when I started dating my husband, we were like, no arguing via text or when we’re out with our friends like, you can’t call and be like, hey, remember? Like those are just not good times. So how do you say, you know, like after 30 minutes, we need to take a break. We have to set some parameters around how we talk to each other in relationships.
Eric Zimmer 00:58:51 Before you check out. Pick one insight from today and ask, how will I practice this before bedtime? Need help turning ideas into action? My free weekly Bites of Wisdom email lands every Wednesday with simple practices, reflection and links to former guests who can guide you even on the tough stuff like anxiety, purpose and habit change. Feed your good wolf at one you feed. Net newsletter again one you feed net. newsletter. I think that’s a great point. We had a guest recently. I can’t remember who said it, but they said when there’s communication problems or something’s not working, it’s always good to try and talk about the way we talk about things like, here’s how we and now we’re on the same team. Are going to talk about these things. You can’t implement that rule in the middle of an argument usually. But outside of that, to agree to some guidelines can be really, really helpful.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:59:48 Yeah. And it really sets the stage for future communication because sometimes we get it wrong. You know, like sometimes, you know, in a conversation I’ll say something in the wrong way.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 00:59:58 The intonation is off. But when you talk about how you talk and disagreements, you can correct that in future interactions. Like, wow, I didn’t notice that I was yelling. But, you know, in the future I could be more mindful of my tone. So that’s really helpful in our relationships to talk about the way in which we communicate well.
Eric Zimmer 01:00:20 Nedra, that I think is a great place for us to wrap up. I always love talking with you. I think we have great conversations. Your new book is wonderful. Again, it is called Drama Free A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. And we’ll have links in our show notes to where people can get access to the book and all the stuff that you do. So thank you so much for coming on.
Nedra Glover Tawwab 01:00:41 You’re welcome. Thank you for having me again.
Eric Zimmer 01:00:43 Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I’d love for you to share it with a friend. Share it from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do.
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